Men bashing

Men generally don't care. If they did, there would be no need for feminism!

I agree, but I think men*, when they have it explained, do actually start to care. Not all mind - not the ones who are heavily invested in sexism or so deeply misogynistic that that they immediately pooh pooh anything a woman says, but generally they do care. It is just a battle to get through their thorny defenses....

ha ha - I just realised men are like sleeping beauty - deep inside a castle surrounded by thorns... just waiting for a feminist to take her machete and cut through all that 'NAMALT' and 'women do it too' to awaken him to his full human conscience, with a big slap of reality - rather than a kiss

Pretty time consuming though. each individual bloke is haaaaaard work - feminist time can be better spent else where.

*women too - but that is a bit different - like Bertrand Russell's - (the philosopher, not you the mumsnetter) 'knowledge by acquaintance' or 'knowledge by description'.

I think most men have yet to grasp the concept that sex isn't something they have a right to.

I'm sorry, newdaddie, but it's just so depressing

It's sot of highlighted when an obviously well intentioned feminist ally like newdaddie still feels the need to defend prostitution and pornography and do passive aggressive little strike-outs.

But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

Less you remove the word commercial, that doesn't exist.

That's what's so dispiriting. Men generally don't care. If they did, there would be no need for feminism!

Yep.

We ought to have a campaign called "Straight White Men's Lives Matter"
I can just sense all the blokes and handmaidens feeling overjoyed at the prospect....
But you know that will never catch on, there will still be narky detractors until you call it "Straight White Men's Lives Matter More Than Anyone Elses "

"Too many man just don't care.

This is why just telling them to stop won't work"

That's what's so dispiriting. Men generally don't care. If they did, there would be no need for feminism!

Through compromise or fight.

I want to achieve it through men taking responsibility and modifying their attitudes and behaviour. It's not rocket science and the oppression of women is not our problem to solve. I want to see men getting on with it.

I think that men will listen, newdaddie. They just won't listen to women.

On a general level, anyway.

I am lucky that I have dw.

You just reduced your wife's achievements,qualities and personality to your ability to have sex with her. Cool

We ought to have a campaign called "Straight White Men's Lives Matter"

They are, of course currently the most oppressed group in society............

But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

It isn't possible for that system to exist IMO.

Too many man just don't care.

This is why just telling them to stop won't work sticklebrix

Sex is also addictive which just telling men (or women) to just stop won't work.

A wholistic (and possibly global) decriminalisation and removal of the taboo of sex for love and/or money will erode the male dominated, abusiveoften criminal S tructures which are presently the only way for people to pay for sex.

I am lucky that I have dw. If I wasn't with dw I still wouldn't use prostitutes because I don't want to be funding an abusive system. But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

It would also be nice if women could speak about things which happen to them without men piping up "but we experience this too!"

It would be nice homity but humans are intrinsically selfish and what I've noticed is that men especially men's rights activists ignore the fact that 9999 women who are abused is far more of a pressing concern than the 1 man who is abused. But to overlook that one man creates powerful opposition from a selfish, wrong but yet still powerful class (men)

This is why I give my sincerest possible smile of agreement to the all lives matter brigade while proudly fighting for black lives matter

It depends how you want to achieve liberation. Through compromise or fight.

I didn't mention prohibition. I just said men should stop using prostitution and pornography. Why should we need to ban it?

Here's my thoughts on why men in the UK (who are predominantly white, certainly those with the power to change stuff promptly) don't fight as hard to end the issues in vesuvia's list

Us black men need to do more too Olenna

Anyone who's involved with Mothers Against Violence would see that black women carry the greater burden of the toxic environment that see their sons needlessly murdering each other and their daughters suffering.

newdaddie
'No, prohibition doesn't work and ironically prohibition of sex, drugs etc has patriarchal religious origin. Liberalisation, regulation and education is the way forward imo. '

I disagree. Pornography and prostitution are both ways in which women are abused. There is a power dynamic which is not equal here. Liberalisation just means that even more women will be abused. It normalises and legitimises the use of women. Education doesn't work. Too many man just don't care.

Anyway, the point was that men should just refrain from using women for pornography and prostitution. They are not entitled to do this. It damages women and they should just stop.

daddie

It would also be nice if women could speak about things which happen to them without men piping up "but we experience this too!"

As someone who worked in DV services, I can count the number of genuine male victims on one hand. And that wasn't because they weren't reporting it either.

Stop using prostitutes
Stop using pornography
No, prohibition doesn't work and ironically prohibition of sex, drugs etc has patriarchal religious origin. Liberalisation, regulation and education is the way forward imo.

Stop using sexist language
Definitely, this is especially important to prevent normalising sexist attitudes for future generations even if our generation think it's 'harmless' or 'banter'

Call out other men on their sexist language/attitudes
Yes women too
Stop hitting women
Yes women shouldn't hit men either

Take an equal part in domestic/family life
Yes, as long as equal means fairly an realistically shared not some arbitrary 50-50 guideline. I've effectively have 2 jobs while I do the majority of our renovation projects. Dw chooses to do the majority of 'domestic' work. If anyone objects they are welcome to help me free up some of my time (for domestic chores) by helping me crawl through dried up bird/rodent poo on their bellys in old lofts to put spot lights in.

Stop supporting sexist music/films/online behaviour
Yes definitely for online behaviour, no perhaps for art, which imitates life and artists should be given freedom of expression. Kevin Gates (a rapper) - Posed to be in love is good example. This song is about domestic violence; some view it as vile glorification, some view it as brilliant exposé. I lean towards the latter, black women are incredibly stoic and often their experience of DV is not heard.

Inform themselves about consent and only ever have sex with women who are demonstrating enthusiastic consent.
100% agree, I also take responsibility for teaching my god sons, nephews and if I have a son this too.

Take responsibility for their own fertility.
Hmm, the flip side to this is erosion of trust between sexual partners. I have a peter pan uncle who always uses condoms but also thinks every woman is a nasty skank after his money.

Speak out about non family friendly workplace practices.
Yes, for big AND small companies, there's a myth that maternity hurts small business. SMP is recoverable at 103%. The 3% might not cover recruitment costs but there is merit to the argument that a diversified workforce with better work-life balance will be more productive.

Model what it is to be a good man to their children.
Definitely

They could also stop saying they are women.

And can I add to that the list of things men could agree to do now that would make a huge difference?
Stop using prostitutes
Stop using pornography
Stop using sexist language
Call out other men on their sexist language/attitudes
Stop hitting women
Take an equal part in domestic/family life
Stop supporting sexist music/films/online behaviour
Inform themselves about consent and only ever have sex with women who are demonstrating enthusiastic consent
Take responsibility for their own fertility.
Speak out about non family friendly workplace practices.
Model what it is to be a good man to their children.

Here's my thoughts on why men in the UK (who are predominantly white, certainly those with the power to change stuff promptly) don't fight as hard to end the issues in vesuvia's list:

• killing of unwanted female babies

• mutilating girls' genitals

• trafficking of women and girls for prostitution

• allowing a man to rape his wife with impunity

• forcing women made pregnant through rape to continue with life-threatening pregnancy

• smearing a woman's reputation by bringing up her sexual history in a rape trial

• terminating the employment of a woman because she is pregnant

• paying female employees less than male employees for the same work

• executing married women, who are victims of rape, because they are deemed to have committed adultery

**NB - not my personal views!!

cadnowyllt
I would have thought that the vast majority of men in this country would have no objection to any of that list.

I think you missed vesuvia 's point.

She was responding to the accusation that feminists in FWR are 'just as bad as patriarchy'.

Which is clearly, when you look at vesuvia's list, bollocks.

Hom - a variety of reasons, you choose one (to begin with) and we can discuss (if you want)....although it's just turned 5.00 and I need to be making tracks.

Then why does a lot of it still happen in this country, cad?