Men bashing

Oh fgs - can you not see the difference between concensual sex freely entered into and sex only entered into if paid for?

The answer to that is clearly no. Many men don't see the difference.

newdaddie, if you have to pay someone to have sex with you, they're not consenting. You're paying them to waive their consent. The money is a proxy for consent.

I just feel like I've had too many editions of "men explain the need for prostitution to feminists" for this week - can we have a quota, cause I might be able to deal better with it then

Especially when followed by "and if you don't agree you are narrow minded anti-sex puritans"

Once again we are talking about prostitution rather than, say, domestic violence.......

I know. I would say "why does it always come back to that?", but...meh. I know why.

I just feel like I've had too many editions of "men explain the need for prostitution to feminists" for this week - can we have a quota, cause I might be able to deal better with it then.

I certainly think men buying consent is intrinsically bad and immoral...

A pithier reply than mine.

Wholistically legalising commercial sex is good imo. Unless you think sex itself is intrinsically bad and immoral?

Oh fgs - can you not see the difference between concensual sex freely entered into and sex only entered into if paid for?

Society saying sex is immoral contributes to prostitutes PTSD

Western society does not say sex is immoral- very far from it. Sex is not immoral if engaged in freely by consenting adults who are not cheating on people they have made a commitment too. I could not care less who or what or how many the partiipants are.

I think it is punters who contribute to prostitutes feeling bad.

Anyway. About those 2 women a week killed by their partners..........

"Unless you think sex itself is intrinsically bad and immoral?"

I certainly think men buying consent is intrinsically bad and immoral...

newdaddie there was absolutely nothing in my post that justifies your snarky'unless you are anti sex' comment.
Women dont tun to porn and prostitution because they like sex.

In reality, legalising sex does not work. The fact you cant be bothered to look at the links to PTSD, trafficking and child abuse shows you are not an ally to women.
You are not a nice guy, you dont want to know the reality, you just want the fantasy.

Society saying sex is immoral contributes to prostitutes PTSD. I strongly believe that if the societal shame of sex is removed there would be far less prostitute PTSD.

Coercion into the act is more likely to contribute to a sense of PTSD. If there is ever a society in which the balance of power is equal between men and women, rich and poor then, and only then, you might have some case for commercial prostitution as a free and equal exchange.

Lets focus on getting that society and then pick up the subject of commercial sex at that point shall we?

So. About domestic violence.

There is, it's called Tinder, Affair sites, and most online dating sites. Heterosexual women can get all the free sex they want. It's the men who have to do the hard work, which is why they prefer to pay prostitutes, easy and simple. The problem is that most women go on online dating to find a partner/soulmate; most don't want a soulless sexual encounter.

Therein lies the problem with a barter economy for sex. If men don't want commitment and women don't want soulless sex, then what bridges the gap?

Money should bridge the gap like it does for most things but because we're told that it's immoral what happens instead is lies, deceit, betrayal and abuse bridges the gap.

Once again we are talking about prostitution rather than, say, domestic violence.......

DJBaggySmalls

Wholistically legalising commercial sex is good imo. Unless you think sex itself is intrinsically bad and immoral?

Society telling a soldier that killing is moral while the deep inside they feel it is intrinsically immoral contributes to their PTSD.

Society saying sex is immoral contributes to prostitutes PTSD. I strongly believe that if the societal shame of sex is removed there would be far less prostitute PTSD.

They both similarly carry the burden of shame guilt and loathing in addition to the acute trauma.

The whole shady underground nature of the sex industry coupled with society's view of sex workers and 'female purity' contributes to the suffering of sex workers.

I read the punternet examples they are horrific. Especially though the lens of present morality. But if ordering oral sex was as acceptable as ordering a pinot noir I suspect a lot of punternet comments would seem far more benign.

And is that the age long answer of why women can orgasm without sex? So we get to enjoy it without getting knocked up?

GuardianLions

In other words - it is not really possible for men to have lots of soulless sex with women, because our biology has an aversion to it.

I've never seen it expressed that way. What is the biological aversion?

Is it because before contraception, every time we had sex we would get pregnant?

most women go on online dating to find a partner/soulmate; most don't want a soulless sexual encounter.

But there are a lot of other men that are up for it - so maybe if it is soulless sex men want to feed their 'addiction' - why not go to one of the huge number of parks and cemeteries that are cruising sites and shag other men for free.

In other words - it is not really possible for men to have lots of soulless sex with women, because our biology has an aversion to it. Of course there are lots of women that shag around, but all the ones I know have done it very much on their own terms apart from the umpteen horror stories they admit in their reflective moments.

Men simply can't have sex with women on his own terms, without the whole machinery of prostitution, which requires massive social inequality, CSA, cultural misogyny, (ie Patriarchy) etc in order to prime and process women to be used in it.

"I'll stop using the strickthrough and save it for when I actually want to be an asshole."

I am the queen of the PA strike out myself!

But it is interesting , don't you think, that you felt it was necessary to do the "but women do this too". Had you thought about why? It's something that often riles feminists because we feel that men are expecting us to look after their interests at a time when 2 women a week(ish) are being killed by their domestic partner, and it hardly seems to make a ripple on the surface of society.....

newdaddie
Google 'effects of legalization on prostitution' (note the word 'negative' is not included) brings up scholarly articles.
Prostitution increases illegal trafficking, the abuse of children within the industry, harm to women and PTSD.

The Nordic model keep prostitution illegal and gives the women more safety. Sexual services men ask dfor are less sadistic and not so extreme. The Nordic model provides support for women wanting to leave prostitution.

Prostitutes have high rates of PTSD. If you dont know why then go read Punternet. The comments by men who use prostitutes should make you rage.
Some choice examples here;
the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

passive aggressive little strike-outs

That is the language adopted on MN. I use it more passively than aggressively in the sense that it i use it for something that should be mentioned but perhaps only trivially.

I'm a newdaddie but an even newer MNer. I'll stop using the strickthrough and save it for when I actually want to be an asshole.

Newdaddie you might be right,but in your post that was all about sex,the need for sex,the "lack" of sex availability, you just had to mention how lucky you are you have your dw...for sex.

And in many cases, I think the only reason they do stick around to listen is because they are hoping to shag the feminist who is explaining it to them...

Is that a gold star feminist ally?

"I have only ever shagged feminists."

How many times do they need it explained to them? Can they not read? Observe? Listen? Reason? Empathize?

Indeed.
And in many cases, I think the only reason they do stick around to listen is because they are hoping to shag the feminist who is explaining it to them...

You just reduced your wife's achievements,qualities and personality to your ability to have sex with her. Cool

If you ever met dw you would know that it is practically impossible to diminish the woman even after almost 20 years.

I feel we are physically and emotionally matched but in today's society commitment is rare so yes a little bit of luck is in there. There have been stronger, more intelligent, richer, more beautiful men available but she is committed to me. If that isn't good fortune than I don't know what counts as lucky.

"I agree, but I think men*, when they have it explained, do actually start to care. Not all mind - not the ones who are heavily invested in sexism or so deeply misogynistic that that they immediately pooh pooh anything a woman says, but generally they do care. It is just a battle to get through their thorny defenses.... "

How many times do they need it explained to them? Can they not read? Observe? Listen? Reason? Empathize?

But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

There is, it's called Tinder, Affair sites, and most online dating sites. Heterosexual women can get all the free sex they want. It's the men who have to do the hard work, which is why they prefer to pay prostitutes, easy and simple. The problem is that most women go on online dating to find a partner/soulmate; most don't want a soulless sexual encounter.