Men bashing

*Don't we just need to use our imagination Datun? Why couldn't we extract the same things from men? Couldn't women have total Control over reproductive rights? Couldn't it be men be exploited for their labour?

Yes, I see what you mean Cruella.
But control over reproduction rights is not taking something from anyone. Except the right, if you see what I mean. And men are already exploited by other men for their labour.

It was a post on Facebook that got me thinking about this. I don't know if it is a part of feminism that is widely accepted, though.

The poster obviously knew a lot about the subject, he (I think it was a man) pointed out that the reason why black people were oppressed is so that white people could extract something from them (labour for jobs the whites didn't want to do).

He used a couple of other examples too. But his basic premise was that power is only ever exercised as a means of extraction.

It got me thinking. Because if we accept that people will exploit power for the sake of it, would we not be seeing more of a hierarchy filtering through all aspects of society?

Within each strata, there would be a more recognised structure of power?

The questions is often asked 'why patriarchy?' And the answer is because they can. This particular poster made the reasons for seizing power very clear.

And yes, I could use my imagination over how a matriarchy might extract something from men, but it's not a clearly defined goal. So I wondered if it was because we don't need to extract anything (despite acknowledging that there are a lot of things we could extract).

That's not to say we don't need to redress the balance of something being extracted from us.

Princess-I'm not quite sure what you're asking for. Sympathy and support for your husband? Absolutely. Acknowledgement that it's difficult to stand up as a feminist ally? Absolutely again. Realization that most men are more than happy with the status quo and will gang up on anyone who rocks the boat? Yep-sadly that too.

It also rather give the lie to NAMALT-if all men in his work place ALT apart from one.

Exactly Bertrand That hateful acronym needs replacing. How about TOMOMALT? The overwhelming majority of men are like that.

It also rather give the lie to NAMALT-if all men in his work place ALT apart from one.

Cross posted Bertrand.

But I guess most posters will say that's what women have to put up with everyday so he deserves it?

He certainly doesn't deserve it. But it's true that many women do have to put up with that sort of thing. They don't deserve it either.

"But I guess most posters will say that's what women have to put up with everyday so he deserves it?"

It is what women put up with every day, but no, he doesn't deserve it.

It sounds like a hideous work place. He should certainly report the bullying to HR. And maybe it's time for him to look for another job?

Once again no one has ever said or suggested "all men".

Datun thanks I was at extremes because other posters were suggesting all men are abusers or just not reacting when I asked how my husband should behave to prove he is a decent man. He used to call out stuff like this quite often but as he works in a male dominated industry his circle of friends has decreased over the years because of this and he has become ostracised for his boring attitude. The few female colleagues he has have no such qualms and join in with such talk freely joining in with banter against my husband and his female boss bullies him for being sensitive. But I guess most posters will say that's what women have to put up with everyday so he deserves it?

It really is the little things. Not laughing at sexist jokes, making sure that everyone contributes in meetings, being a good role model at home, not spending money in ways that harm women. Calling out 'banter' in safe environments at the risk of offence or coming over as a prude.

This is the bare minimum that we should expect from men.

But as I understand it, oppression isn't done for the sake of it. It's done to extract something from the oppressed. So men extract emotional, reproductive and sexual labour from women.

What keeps it going are the gainz.

Which would mean women would have to be motivated by what they can extract from men.

And I don't mean to be detrimental to men, but I'm wondering what those gains would, or could, be?

Don't we just need to use our imagination Datun? Why couldn't we extract the same things from men? Couldn't women have total control of reproductive rights? Couldn't it be men exploited for their labour?

Exactly stuff like this. The "little" things are hugely important. When his friends say stuff like "typical woman" etc my DP will now say "what do you mean by that?"

YY.

Exactly stuff like this. The "little" things are hugely important. When his friends say stuff like "typical woman" etc my DP will now say "what do you mean by that?"

YY.

But it's going to take a smidge more than lip service and echo chambers

newdaddie, if you genuinely believe you are a feminist ally, what does this comment mean?

and as for only picking up in your comments about prostitution, by all means let's go back to your little listicle and work through it. what would you like to discuss instead? which part of the echo chamber do you think would benefit from your clarity? how about your minimising of the gendered nature of domestic violence?

Call out other men on their sexist language/attitudes
Yes women too
Stop hitting women
Yes women shouldn't hit men either

(in your original post, there are strikerhroughs which haven't reproduced in the copy/paste, which makes it look a little more overt, but i'm not a fan of the Pa strike through so I haven't manually put it back in).

if you want to be a feminist ally, then honestly, you have some way to go. Perhaps you care about that, perhaps you don't. I don't know.

calling out sexist comments/jibes

Exactly stuff like this. The "little" things are hugely important. When his friends say stuff like "typical woman" etc my DP will now say "what do you mean by that?"

Too few men are willing to risk ridicule by doing this sort of thing.

Today 00:04 PrincessLeia80

NoLoveofMine that seems fair, if he gets beaten up, put in hospital or stabbed to death I should be happy he was a feminist to the end.

Princess, I'm not sure why you have taken this to such an extreme. No one has suggested that your husband tools up and sets forth as some kind of vigilante.

Just calling out sexist comments/jibes when he's in the pub with his friends. Giving a cool reaction to sexist jokes.

It's not difficult to become known as one of those men who isn't impressed by that sort of banter.

Being aware of inequality in his job, especially if he is in a position of authority.

Simply being aware of inequality will often just inform the way you behave around others.

As he hasn't been killed defending females or spent his free time protesting for our rights he should be imprisoned as a potential abuser.

If men were to stop being so aggressive would that lead to an increase in female aggression

Several times I've seen people, mostly men, who say that if we had a matriarchy, women would abuse their power in the same way that men do under a patriarchy.

But as I understand it, oppression isn't done for the sake of it. It's done to extract something from the oppressed. So men extract emotional, reproductive and sexual labour from women.

What keeps it going are the gainz.

Which would mean women would have to be motivated by what they can extract from men.

And I don't mean to be detrimental to men, but I'm wondering what those gains would, or could, be?

If men were to stop being so aggressive would that lead to an increase in female aggression?

I'm completely boggled by this. What point is this making?

I wish women had the luxury of walking away when we feel threatened.

Where he's aware of it he will protested to an extent. He has challenged someone where he felt they were being abusive but I've also seen him walk away when potentially threatened.

Theresa May may be PM currently, but there are only 30% or so of MPs that are women, and the numbers have never been higher than this. The percentage is similar for local govt, for the Scottish and Welsh assemblies, for MEPs and the House of Lords. Internationally women make up around 9% of President/Prime Ministers of the 193 UN member countries. Now, remind me how this means that men don't hold power?

" I misunderstood this thread and stook up for my husband who I see as a decent person but clearly I'm wrong. As he hasn't been killed defending females or spent his free time protesting for our rights he should be imprisoned as a potential abuser"

I am sure your husband is a decent person. What does he do to challenge other men about their misogeny?

We should all speak out about patriarchy the definition of which is a system of government in which men hold the power, maybe Theresa May could do speech! I misunderstood this thread and stook up for my husband who I see as a decent person but clearly I'm wrong. As he hasn't been killed defending females or spent his free time protesting for our rights he should be imprisoned as a potential abuser.

It is so hard for men. They are the real victims of misogyny - the poor good men don't know how to show they're good men. We doubt them, other men beat them up :(