Men bashing

The theory of egalitarianism is all well and good, but if you don't start with an analysis of the ways in which men and women aren't equal in the world, then how do you implement any action? What would you even be doing? Wanting everything to be perfect for everyone sounds like a recipe for never getting anything done to me.

If you're new around here you're probably not aware of the extent to which this board is troubled by anti-feminist troublemakers and trolls. . They goad, derail and in general do their best to prevent us from talking about feminist subjects that we want to discuss with other feminists. Would you go to a board dedicated to discussing climate change and tell them you don't believe in global warming? No, you wouldn't, because that would make you an arse. You'd go there because you wanted to discuss with like minded people, who have an interest in the topic and want to learn more from each other, not people who think your worldview is bollocks. Same goes for here.

I think, that if you want to get a grip on this, I might suggest you pop over to PistonHeads (who actually, last time I was there, are generally a lovely bunch), onto whatever seems like the best equivalent to this feminism board, and suggest that they might be being a bit mean about women and we should all just get along.

Compare and contrast responses, and see if you think we're overly harsh in comparison.

Another weak victim here, although I don't have cats, just dogs.

I do appreciate the irony of calling cadno out for being mean to men, when his sole posting performance is now linked to telling people that rape isn't actually rape on threads about... um... rape.

How shall I bash the men in my life... open or close handed, do you think?

The reason women often talk about feminism and women's liberation is that the term "sexual equality" is capable of misinterpretation. You could say - and men often do - that if women want equality they should compete against men in sports, for example, or be refused maternity leave on the basis that men don't get it.

The sexes are different in various key physical ways - reproduction, strength, lung capacity - but not in terms of intellect or character. Men are not better leaders or more logical than women, for instance, though some people insist they are.

We won't achieve equality by treating men and women exactly the same. For women to get equality in terms of outcome, we need to allow for the toll childbearing takes physically and financially, and examine its effects on women's careers, pension provision, etc. Then there's the patterns of behaviour revealed by class analysis. For example, because girls are far less likely to do STEM subjects at university, there are scholarships in those fields which are exclusively for girls.

Equality is a bit of a red herring word. That's why I use feminism or women's liberation.

StewieGMum the OP said
"rather than making us all seem weak victims"

I think the seem changes the whole meaning of the sentence. Women are perceived to be weak, even if they aren't.

I come from an male heavy family and I know what you mean.

Yetanother crunchy yet piquant!

OP, without sounding like a bitter old trout - open your eyes, just a bit. It's great that the men you are related to are lovely, honestly it is. I quite like the ones in my house too.

But look at the stats for domestic violence.
Look at the global stats for 'child brides'.
Look at the stats for people trafficking and sexual exploitation.
Look at the stats for girls in school vs boys in school.
Look at the porn culture and the effect it's having on women and girls.
Look at the % of women in positions of power - whether that's political or employment or whatever - against men in the same positions.

And ponder this. If Hillary Clinton had won the US election it wouldn't make women equal to men. To make women equal to men, the US would have to elect a further 44 women. To make women equal to men in that particular position of power, it would be another 176 years before a man was elected (that's assuming one term each, by the way).

You need, I think, with kindness, to do more than 'appreciate this isn't always the case'. You need to look outside your bubble. It's a hard world for women and girls, and saying that doesn't make me a 'weak victim'. It makes me a smart social observer.

You used the expression "man bashing" OP. A common use of words is the accusation that feminists are men haters, to which the answer has to be that if you look at the stats on sex and violence, any hating that's being done is being done by men.

Do you not find that the lovely men you know are all too aware of the risk other men pose to the women in their lives? My DH used to say he knew the worst because he'd heard how some men spoke about women. It made him very protective of his DD. She said she loved knowing her DF had her back, having a big daddy she could introduce to new boyfriends - just in case. Good men know not all men are safe with women.

OP it's hard to see it at first but there is a difference between discussing men as a class and men as individuals. It's also a bit pointless to mention NAMALT(not all men ) because obviously nobody has met all the men ever, or think that absolutely every single one is a rapist/abusive/murderer.
The main issue is that many times any kind of discussion about men as a class,invariably gets sidetracked by the "men who aren't like that" argument, and feminists (on here at least) are sick and tired of having such discussions shut down and derailed.

Random musings here.

My father and brother are actually pretty philogynous - my husband less so, though I think he would be shocked to hear me say that. He has improved through contact with me However, one of the things that feminism can do is alter your viewpoint so that you can suddenly see that things that have happened to you did not happen because you were you, but because you were female. That can be strange, and yes, it can feel disempowering because you realise that there is nothing you can do about having a vagina and a womb and generally less muscle than a male. You can also kick against the idea that you haven't got attention because you are talented or beautiful or intelligent but because, in the immortal words of Philip Roth, you have a cunt! They all have cunts! For fucking!! - i.e. that as a woman you are part of the sex class, marked for sex by having sex organs that differ from men's. It really isn't about whether the men in your life are wonderful human beings - those in my life really are, I would agree with you there.

There are times when having those things feels better/ empowering, such as having a baby, and then you can start to think, why does having a baby mean that women also get x, y z, and you're back to feeling disempowered again. Because it's true, you actually have had some power taken away. Not by an individual man, but by men and women as classes, forming the structures of society.

I plan to have 27 cats when I have a sprawling mansion and a live-in cat helper

Pirate You said 'weak victims' - victims of male violence included stalking, harassment, online abuse, domestic violence and rape.

So, yes, when you say 'weak victims' you are calling victims of the above crimes, and all other victims of male violence, weak. You are calling victims of rape 'weak'. You are saying the problem isn't men who rape but women who are 'weak'.

It does take a few months of regular reading to understand just how many (male) goady fuckers post here, with the sole intention of starting a bun fight

Actually we haven't had one of these for a while. I've almost forgotten what they taste like whn bbq'd!

OP, you've used as your example of "feminist man bashing" a post by an man who has little time for feminists, being responded to by someone who isn't a feminist

I know. Couldn't have picked 2 worse examples.

Given that men's group managed to shut down a women's group Cadnowylt's "Billie no- mates" jibe would hit home more effectively and deservedly than anything a woman could say to them.

Although tbf if you are fairly new to these boards, as I was once, it's OK to be a bit WTAF about the way posters respond to male posters.

It does take a few months of regular reading to understand just how many (male) goady fuckers post here, with the sole intention of starting a bun fight. Regular posters are not patient with these people - nor should they be - but if a 'shut down a goady fecker' thread was the first, second or even tenth thread you'd read here, you would wonder what the hell you'd wandered into.

To be clear however punters are scum. I don't care in the slightest if that is man bashing.

Amen to that. Or maybe A-women I couldn't give the tiniest little toss if people think I'm mean about men who buy sex. They could stop buying sex and I'll be a lot nicer about them, as I am about other decent men.

I'd quite like to be a lesbian spinster, but I don't know if I could handle 27 cats. I mean, I'd need an awfully big bed and can you imagine the litter boxes?

There's nothing wrong with a bit of man bashing. The nice men know it doesn't relate to them. The horrible men probably don't read Mumsnet that often, if they do, it might do them good to hear why they're not as great as they think they are.

I have a lovely dh, a great brother, and male friends. But I still fervently believe in the need for feminism and that we're nowhere near "there" yet. I'd bet that's the experience of many posters here.

If you have to make it "about" men to feel like you can support it, you could argue that men would benefit strongly from a less misogynistic society.

Meanwhile I think it's a very simplistic take on feminism to see it here as mostly "men-bashing", and also that one obscure example isn't proof that it's rife on Mumsnet!

I'm not an embittered lesbian spinster either, but I'd like 27 cats! Unfortunately, DH is allergic. I blame the menz for stopping me indulging my cat collecting. Bash bash.

No that there is anything wrong with being a lesbian spinster with 27 cats, except that you'd need a really big house and ton of hired help...

But the 'male poster' who you are defending OP hopefully does not have a 'male perspective' (as if there was such a unitary thing) because he is often, if not usually, deliberately goady and sexist and (in my view) deserves the criticism he gets because he is provocative.

Feminism isn't about making men and women the same though. It's about liberating women (as a class) from oppression. That's not a happy-clappy kind of objective - it means removing privilege from the oppressing class, which in this case is men.

When 2 women a week (in the UK, mind, not in the world) are killed from domestic violence it's OK to get a bit ragey about men as a class.

OP, you've used as your example of "feminist man bashing" a post by an man who has little time for feminists, being responded to by someone who isn't a feminist So I don't think you're proving what you think you're proving...

I'm also white, and though I myself am not racist, I can be sure that I've got racial biases that I'm not even wholly aware of, and that as a white person, I benefit from a racist society that disempowers BAME people. Same goes for men - I have a number of lovely men in my life and I don't man bash, but equally I'm not going to hold back from analysing the ways in which they benefit from a sexist society because I might hurt their feelings by pointing it out.