Men bashing

Dworkin was a great writer; however she did posit that all sex is rape, in which case your fathers, sons and husbands are all rapists.

I bloody LOVE Dworkin. Such a lucid thinker and writer. Such power!
I personally believe that the reason why the antifeminist insult of 'fat, hairy-legged, lesbian, dungeree-wearing feminist' (ie- a description of Dworkin) was repeated so often in such a way to make feminism unappealing to women was because of Dworkin''s mighty power to open eyes and forever change women's perceptions. In other words she and her ideas pose a huge threat to patriarchy - even though all she does is talk sense.

If there are feminists older than me that witnessed the 'hairy-legged, dungaree' stereotype gaining increasing traction in modern parlance I'd be interested to know if I'm right or wrong in that.

God i've just had a very quick browse of pistonheads

The thing is, if you pop over there to ask some questions because your RX-8 is having warm-start issues, they're super-helpful and polite - yet all that other stuff seems to just be bubbling under the surface for so many!

But weirdly I've never gone away thinking that MAN was dreadful, but just that that PERSON is dreadful

I'm not having a go, just pointing out that it is interesting that you thought that about a man, but when a woman was upset at having a door held open for her, you didn't think that she was just a person, but you added her to a mental list of feminists man-bashing?

It's one of those tricks that the patriarchy plays on your mind - men are individuals, but the behaviour of a woman is taken as an example of all womankind.

All her work is available to download for free. here

She wrote beautifully, even if you don't agree with what she writes, it will make you think about women's issues in new ways.

I'm not really up on Dworkin in general, but I would like to read more based on that.

Interestingly, this image came up on my Twitter feed this morning. I know a couple of people don't have much time for Dworkin, however, I don't think there's much to argue here.

God i've just had a very quick browse of pistonheads. I think we give men as a class too much credit sometimes . I guess some would call it locker room talk as if that excuses it. Male supremacy is the only phrase that springs to mind.

One of my favourite websites back in my awakening days was I Blame The Patriarchy

A website that banned men from posting irrespective of their views. Ahh dear old Twisty. Ho Ho

I understand! I didn't really come to feminism until my mid 30s and before that I think my beliefs were very akin to yours. It was only through being in a relationship with an alcoholic, leading me into counselling with a fantastic (male, actually) therapist , that I started to ask why a lot more, of myself, my attitudes and the world around me.

One of my favourite websites back in my awakening days was I Blame The Patriarchy. Worth reading through the archives. No harm in going back to page 1 of this section and having a read, although many of the really insightful ones have been removed for various reasons. Still some great stuff in there (was having a trawl for something the other day).

Best of luck in your journeys, nursing and feminism both.

Well, this is fun.

OP the point of feminism (in my eyes) is the bigger picture,which is also why men are referred to as a class. You couldn't really build up and challenge the bigger picture if you only used individual examples.

Lovely to see you responding so positively to the replies, PirateQueenie, and engaging so willingly. I don't post here much anymore (was always here under previous name changes) because of the proliferation of posts in the vein as your op, but only as post and runs.

May I ask, how do you think your beliefs that you espoused in your early posts would make a material difference in the world? And also, do you ever have discussions about feminist issues with the men in your life?

OP, if the point of feminism is to empower women, that suggests they are not currently empowered.

What do you think causes this disempowerment?

Maybe you could give an example of how women can become empowered as an illustration?

Recently one of my male colleagues was sexually harassed including being inappropriately touched. He was really shaken by it and at one point got a bit upset as he thought I wasn't taking it seriously enough. I'd said something like 'another day, another arsehole'. It made me realise how much I minimise that behaviour as something I expect to happen regularly, and we had a good talk about it all. If I let it get me down I'd be a mess, and like most men, he hadn't realised it happened so frequently and was genuinely shocked that he's managed to basically ignore it until it happened to him.

Pirate, have you ever been sexually harassed by a woman? It has never happened to me. I'm in my thirties, I've been shouted at in the street a million times, but it's never been a woman. Considering that a significant percentage of women are lesbian or bisexual, I should expect to have experienced it at least once, considering countless men have done it.

Equally, women do some things that annoy me. Like the ones who pretend they don't eat because they think women aren't supposed to act like they enjoy food. However, I see that as a bit sad that they've been limited in being themselves, rather than anything from really bloody annoying to a real danger to my safety, which street harassment can be.

But weirdly I've never gone away thinking that MAN was dreadful, but just that that PERSON is dreadful.

Stop and think why they were dreadful? Why couldn't they just take a simple no? Why did they think they had a right to your body/attention?
And then think how many women have acted in the same way? And if they did would you or a man feel threatened the same way you did then?

Society needs to view men less as individuals and more as a class as a whole IMO. How many men murder women? I don't think a day goes by where I don't see an article about yet another case. Yet they are all reported as individual men. Nobody joins up the dots and calls it an epidemic of male violence, except feminists. If anything else was killing at the rate men do there would be an outcry, it would dominate headlines. Remember swine flu? But another man kills someone and it is no big deal.

I have great men in my life. I'm the mother of a son. But I'm still able to understand that men as a class oppress and harm women as a class. I wasn't raped because I was an individual who came across another individual. I was raped because I'm a woman who came across a man.

Yes, Rebel, I agree. I'm just saying that putting men down is not something feminists do, it's something the patriarchy does. It positions being a good father as something beneath men, whereas feminist expect men to be an equal partner and value a man's input into a child's life.