Men bashing

I think you're right about the sport of debating with feminists guardian. Wrong choice of word in my post, because it implies something quite different from what I meant.

pickleme, I think you might be picking up on my post, but I don't think you really need to? I don't mean at all that people shouldn't participate until they are fully fledged experts (that would rule me out for a start ). If someone has come here with a good-faith, genuine "help me understand this thing about feminism" post, then 9 times out of 10, they get great input. It's when people are being snarky or obtuse or lumping all feminists together in one great big man hating bundle that frustration sets in. Get stuck in, you'll be fine.

Because MrsDB, not including men is mean and horrid, or something.

There were men who posted on it (according to people who also posted on it, I can't say for sure) which suggests that men who got booted off it acted like spunk trumpets. Who can say?

Just rowing back a bit, why should Twisty not have banned men from comments on her blog? Seems to me like she had every right to decide whose comments she'd welcome. It's not like THE MIGHTY RECKONS OF MEN are generally unavailable.

Sparrowhawk thank you for understanding the context of my post and articulating it better than I could have done.

Hmmm, the only frequent "suck cock" comment I see on this board is that delightful tweet from Danielle Muscato. That gets mentioned quite frequently, because it's a pretty contained example of the things that are wrong with TRAs

Each of the boards on MN that I spend time on has their own feel and tone, and it's just basic netiquette to observe the established protocols, surely? At first, at least.

I doubt many new posters rock up on the Litter Tray, tell everyone that they are doing cat ownership wrong, accuse everyone of being nasty when no-one agrees that it's very irresponsible not to neuter / spay an urban cat, then decide they are all being ridiculous because dogs are better anyway.

Maybe we need a 'baby feminists' board, for those of us who are not there yet. You non people pleasing experts may well be right, and may well long for reasoned debate with your peers, but some of us just waking up and smelling the coffee folk aren't quite ready for you. Could you let us babble quietly in a corner, with just occasional input from the grown ups? I need to work things out through reading and talking, not just reading. That way you don't have to get irritated by our ignorance, and we can work things through without being put right quite so sharply.

Mousse Maybe you could start a 'Why is FWR so Cliquey?' thread - stop you derailing from the 'man-bashing' theme

I've NEVER seen that here before.

Perhaps it's best just to stay quiet?

Perhaps it is, if you're going to peddle shite.

Women often post on here in times of trouble with men, but you do not hear about all the other times when their lives with men are going well.

One thing I am afraid I have found out from mumsnet is that child abuse and rape are far more prevalent than I had realised and I have never had the impression people were making their stories up.

^The "suck cock" comment is regularly used on FWR. I was making a generic comment. If I was being specific would have name checked.^

Eh?!

Bollocks is the "suck cock" line used. Links to specific posts or it didn't happen. You're just making shit up.

Oh dear has a *random poster' defied etiquette? Well I post on MN regularly and have already posted on this thread. Like many posters I changed my name regularly so I can not be identified in RL.

God forbid you come on FWR and are not in the clique. Random posters! How shocking! I would think new voices might be welcome.

The "suck cock" comment is regularly used on FWR. I was making a generic comment. If I was being specific would have name checked.

It's difficult to find the right tone though - if you are too polite you are passive aggressive and part of the patriarchy - if you aggressive you are a 'newbie' who does not understand the etiquette. Perhaps it's best just to stay quiet?

And soz to keep on - I'm still thinking about debating with feminists as a male pursuit - a slight diversion - but still relevant to the OP in a way...

What really bugs me about 'men who like to debate feminism with feminists', is that I know they are just trying to manipulate women who would rather ignore them, into giving them attention.

It is an extremely low form of attention seeking - a member of the oppressor class putting the oppressed on the defensive, just to spar with them from a social position of advantage for idle recreation.

Don't you love it when a random poster pops up from nowhere to completely misrepresent what you've said?

Quite!

That wasn't directed to you Mostly.

I just love it when some posters make it about their delicate selves and yet become all passive aggressive when fact checked. [Grin]

Don't you love it when a random poster pops up from nowhere to completely misrepresent what you've said?

A lesbian poster had posted that she was now frightened of the dating scene because of the pressure to date transwomen or face social ostracism, and asked why it was always lesbians who were expected to suck dick. I posted in support of her, saying that a certain sort of man seemed to expect this of women - and that not only were gay men not under any pressure to go down on transmen, straight women weren't either, because we were expected (by a certain sort of man, NAMALT) to suck men's dicks.

Somehow this has turned into an accusation that any dissent from the "party line" on here (whatever that is) is met with an accusation that "you just want women to suck men's dicks."

I have never said that to any poster on here. No-one I know on FWR has said that to any poster on here. Ever.

But as usual the mean girl feminist accusations fly around without any basis whatsoever. I wish people would come on here and engage in the arguments rather than baselessly misrepresenting people's positions and, frankly, telling great big steaming shitty lies about behaviour that has never taken place.

Also, I am not sure debating is what I do with other feminists. Sometimes pretty robust points can be made, but I like to chat with other feminists to exchange information, temperature check on the state of the world, have a bit of banter, share perspectives, etc.

In my experience debating with feminists is more likely a male pursuit irl, like a kind of point-scoring sport for them to get a kick out of.

It's got nothing to do with some sort of feminist orthodoxy. It's bad netiquette for newbies to come bowling onto boards and say that they find the tone of it depressing or demeaning or man-bashing, or whatever we're calling it now.

Posters who come here in good faith, ready to debate feminism with at least a basic understanding of what that actually means, will do fine. Those who don't, won't. I think that's just as it should be.

One of the most basic acts of feminist consciousness is to challenge the voice inside yourself that says "BE NICE". As PPs have pointed out, when you're used to women being self-effacing and polite and "no, no, after you!" and "I'm sure we can all agree to disagree!", it is shocking to be exposed to an environment where that isn't required.

It's not wrong, though. This is what women sound like when we challenge that internal voice and calmly yet forcefully state our beliefs.

ROAR.

Mousse

So do you think this is the kind of acceptable thing to say when you are relatively new to a forum (capitals mine):

I've noticed that ALMOST EVERY POSTER gets narky, rude and sarcastic with ANYONE who disagrees with them.

Even though it is impossible to make this claim?

You haven't been on FWR long enough or seen enough threads to make comments about almost every poster. It is either antagonistic or a bit childish/teenagerish- or both to make that kind or generalisation

You are not part of the clique.

OP I agree with you however there is a specific orthodoxy on FWR and if you don't buy into it wholesale you are 'rude' 'inappropriate' or 'forcing someone to suck cock'.
I have attempted under various names to engage in discussion. You find yourself having a sensible debate with certain posters and then the pile on begins and it's just easier to leave.
Most posters know how to play the game. Posts can be read several ways and then there are disingenuous 'report if you are offended' or 'I didn't mean it like that' or even 'you are too sensitive for our passionate debates'.
Now that is tiresome and childish. It's a shame as some people do want to debate but there is a hard core who want to enforce the FWR orthodoxy.

Actually if you stick to this board for while you will find that not everyone always agrees. Not the new posters,not the old posters. Even when there's an agreement on an idea in general,people add their own experience ,input and insight into it.

Also, when you've been socialised from birth to be nice and accommodating, and punctuate everything you say with "I'm sorry, but..." and back down when someone disagrees with you, not because you're wrong, but because it's a reflex action, because that's how women are brought up to behave, it can come as a bit of a shock to find yourself in a female environment where women have decided not to be nice, accommodating, etc. By which I don't mean they're then being nasty or obstructive etc. Just not bending over backwards to be nice. When women argue robustly, refuse to back down, demand evidence - in short when women do the sorts of things that are taken for granted in male intellectual discourse - it's often interpreted as "narky", "shrill", "haridan-ish" (insert long list of pejorative words here). Not because the women are actually being any of those things, but simply because they are not conforming to their allotted gender role of being nice and accommodating.

Sorry it should have been:

I've noticed that ALMOST EVERY POSTER gets narky, rude and sarcastic with ANYONE who disagrees with them.

I've noticed that ALMOST EVERY POSTER gets narky, rude and sarcastic with anyone who disagrees with them.

Hi Queenie I've just put in caps the sort of sweeping generalisations that are problematic.

1. You haven't been on FWR long enough or seen enough threads to make comments about almost every poster. It is either antagonistic or a bit childish/teenagerish- or both to make that kind or generalisation.

2. Not all opinions are equal. Some opinions are based only on an emotional feeling or hunch. Some opinions are based on experiences. Some opinions are based on research and facts. Some opinions are based on deep analysis. Some opinions have been honed by robust argument. Some opinions are based on a bit of all of the above.

When well-informed people get annoyed by an emotive person throwing out ill-informed opinions with careless abandon - it is not because they disagree over some subjective matter - they are pulling that person up on being rude/inappropriate.