Cailyn Jenner in woman's hour now!

Hermit you agreed gender stereotyping was wrong, and said you and younger trans people don't do it.

I think 'what is the point of transitioning then, if you aren't enacting a feminine stereotype at all' is a completely valid question and don't see why it's unreasonable to ask.

Or how it could make you feel bad, as you've said you don't adhere to those stereotypes?

Can you see why, when people make points and reasonable questions are asked about them and the answer is always

'You bigots, how dare you question me, it made me feelz bad' it makes it all look like a fairytale that doesn't stand up to a hint of logic?

And utterly predictable. One cannot, just can not have a sensible exchange.

Datun, I guess it's like anything. A gay friend told me that he realised he was gay after Duncan from Blue came out. Famous people come out as gay or trans, and then people identify with that.

I will go back to a point I've made before. As far as children are concerned, it's really important that they get the support that they need, but that they don't rush to any conclusions. I really do believe that trans people should wait until they're 16-18.

Hermit - if you truly think that transactivists are advocating terrible things in the name of transgender people, why don't you stand up and be counted? Women's rights are being eroded by aggressive TAs and AGPs and you are just keeping your head down.

Stand beside up and stand up and be counted.

And if you believe there are transphobic comments on this thread, please report them to MNHQ and they'll delete them

Gaslighting.

hermit

You can't be serious! No-one has personally insulted you. All we have done is point out the reason why women object.

Did you listen to any of it? Do you have an opinion about any of it?

Or are you making our concern over the ideology into a personal attack on you, a reason not to engage and a bloody good reason to tell us how awful we are.

No one suggested that you representative of the people we are talking about. In fact I went out of my way not to!

if your aim here was to make me feel worthless and like a 5th class citizen well done you got what you wanted i genuinely feel like i could burst into tears i really thought the world had moved on from this

But no one has said anything like that Hermit.

"if your aim here was to make me feel worthless and like a 5th class citizen well done you got what you wanted i genuinely feel like i could burst into tears i really thought the world had moved on from this."

Hermit, please do not feel like this. You are just as important as anyone else on here or anyone else in society.

I have trans friends and they have my full support, as do you.

Phyllis

Transactivists will say it's because more people are comfortable with coming out. But that does, surely, imply that they have gender dysphoria?

Otherwise what are they coming out from, or to, and why?

Since transgender now encompasses almost anyone, it's not much of a surprise though.

But there has to be some kind of categorisation.

Are we really going to end up in a society where biological sex is just a free for all, whilst the reasons for women's oppression remain exactly the same, but we lose the tools to talk about it.

The number of young people who think 'identity' is all there is to it, is frightening.

to be honest nothing i say is going to change any of your minds yous have all made your mind up on what you think of people like me.

none of the things yous are saying about trans people applies to me or most of the trans people i know.

this forum as opened my eyes i was quite naive and thought transphobia was becoming a thing of the past i'm a strong person but i feel like I've been unjustifiably attacked been accused of being things that i am not having other people tell me what they think i am been judged because you've seen one or two trans people online do bad things so you think we are all like that

i'm so thankful that i can go about my real life and no one knows i'm trans i'll never have to encounter this in real life but sadly people who look trans will.

if your aim here was to make me feel worthless and like a 5th class citizen well done you got what you wanted i genuinely feel like i could burst into tears i really thought the world had moved on from this.

some of you should be ashamed of yourself's

ABC 20/20 last week insinuated that it had doubled due to Caitlyn transitioning.

The New York Times has just revised its estimate of how many trans-people there are in the US to double what they originally thought. 1.4 million.

Do all these people have gender dysphoria?

<a class="break-all" href="https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html?referer=m.facebook.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html?referer=m.facebook.com

hermit

I think that we are all observing the same thing: there are many ways to be a transwoman and motivations for MTT transition. It is not possible to generalise.

The law must generalise, however. Which is why we see AGP transwomen alongside dysphoric transwomen in women's spaces.

And Hermit, you only have to spend five minutes online to see how violent a lot of transwomen are.

Somehow, and it might be connected to AGP, it attracts the worst form of misogynist. Women are routinely threatened with rape with a bottle, violence, abuse. Not only is that very frightening, women never say that to one another! It's not something that women do.

There is no way I want someone like that anywhere near me in my space. Or anywhere near me at all!

And I realise, you are probably fed up getting tarred with the same brush.

But it's not fair to ask women to accept this very real threat for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings.

And gender stereotyping is only one aspect of the ideology that is harmful to women.

Individuals with AGP (please google it, it might make you see women's point of view better), is a humiliation fetish. The sufferers get off on the idea of forced feminisation. Portraying women as victims to be humiliated. It's an atrocious message to send to women and girls. But it also requires the presence, unwittingly, of females as part of the fetish.

i'll admit some trans people are like what you described and i myself feel a bit uncomfortable mainly because they make my life harder as i have to constantly justify myself to people like you

So do you think speaking up about it would help? Speaking up about how cross dressing men, autogynephiles , transtrenders are impacting your life as well as women's?

I'm getting on a bit, and until very recently I had met 1 trans person in my whole life. That person was FtT and I was only 17 years old. I didn't bat an eyelid, but I didn't think of them as male, there was a female partner and I thought of them as a lesbian couple. No one thought of it any differently because everyone knew you can't change sex, but there was no discrimination or ridicule, it was just them getting on with life. I could be supportive of their life choices without believing a fantasy. Now it's an epidemic and women are worried about their hard won rights.

hermit

I can see you are trying to understand. But it really isn't just about 1950s housewife stereotypes.

Few people would consider that view of women as being beneficial.

But in order for a transwoman to pass, there is no other way except by presenting a view of womanhood.

It means that behaviour, clothes, any aspect a transwoman considers to be that of a female is presented as such.

When the only aspect of being female that is unique to women is biology.

If you didn't portray yourself as a 'woman', you wouldn't pass. So you're instantly reinforcing the idea that there is a way for women to be.

Don't take this the wrong way HermitTheFrog but I am a bit confused now, sorry.

If young transgender people and yourself aren't trying to be what they see as 'feminine' for mtf and 'masculine' for ftm, and ignoring stereotypes about genders, then why transition at all?

Sorry if that's an ignorant question. I thought that was the whole point?

datun

oh no i get that and agree with you i myself don't like that either but i personally find these days a lot of young trans people aren't like that

i think it comes from a place of insecurity when younger trans people do it. but i agree there is a lot of older trans people who are into that whole 50s house wife bullshit and i can't stand it.

I am sorry then Hermit, I have only ever met/seen/heard of mtf's that feel they should 'pass' as a woman by having long hair, wearing women's clothes, having boobs etc.

When I feel that is extremely damaging to both sexes. It puts women and men in neat stereotypical boxes.

And it is horrendously offensive to be told someone is a woman 'just like me' because they have copied some stereotypes.

bigdeskbob

i'm not bothering to reply to anything you say as you seem intent on trying to degrade and belittle me.

hermit

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of transwomen simply don't really listen to or understand the reasons why women object.

The feminist view point is that women as a class, have historically been oppressed by men as a class. One of the ways this is implemented is by assuming that there are stereotypical roles for both men and women. And women take the inferior role. It says that women like dresses, home making, make up, and being girly - ie being what we understand as 'feminine'.

Women have been trying to shrug that off for centuries. Because it holds women back to be seen in an inferior role.

What transgenderism does is say that one of the things you have to do to be a woman is to behave like one. Thereby totally reinforcing that there is a stereotypical behaviour. Which is harmful to women on a profound level.

luckybutton

you've just proved my point about stereotyping i am the complete opposite to everything you just said. you are judging a whole group of people on the actions of a view.

i already said further up most days i don't wear make up and when i do wear make up its quite minimal. i dress very plain i'm currently wearing leggings with an oversized grey hoody and white trainers. i never wear heels despite being very short, i never dress up i work with animals so most days i look pretty scruffy as i'm outside in the mud a lot.

i'll admit some trans people are like what you described and i myself feel a bit uncomfortable mainly because they make my life harder as i have to constantly justify myself to people like you.

"I don't see why someone would make a permanent decision to transition if it was all about a sexual fetish". Phylis, what permanent decision does one need to make to be trans? Also, you'd be amazed the lengths some people go to for their sexual fetishes.

What I'm trying to say is do you have any insight, or opinion about why women may disagree with a lot of what transactivists say?