Cailyn Jenner in woman's hour now!

I worked in the NHS for years, and the disparity between money spent on surgery and mental health is shocking. Added to that, we have a group of people who don't want therapy, they rename it as gatekeeping and conversion therapy. I can't see it changing any time soon.

I do wish people like hermit would think twice before coming on here. Not because I don't want to hear their opinions, but because I don't think they are ready for the debate. Its not good for their mental health, and it's not fair that they try to emotionally blackmail us into being quiet. All my years being socialised as a women disappeared when my daughters future is at stake.

I have no doubt there is a 'profit' element to it.

It's certainly become a niche that is now full of business opportunities.

Private councillors, drugs, surgery, clothes designed to 'pass', gadgets etc.

An awful lot of people are taking it in from:

a) people with a genuine mental health condition

b) from the larger majority of confused, possibly vulnerable people jumping on the bandwagon to fit in. Possibly a result if the seeming increase in gendering hobbies/clothes/attitudes.

C) perverts. Who have always been fairly easy to part from their money.

A lot of gender-critical feminists are saying that this is because the American health system is 'for profit'.

I could tell that hermit was truly hurting. Having his maleness pointed out was awful for him.

And despite his claims to be happy and secure, he was still googling enough to arrive here.

His doubts and insecurities show up.

There has to be a better way.

BigDeskBob

Totally agree. The euphoria of being a woman apparently recedes about 10 years afterwards.

That's when the suicide rate goes up. Because it's not actually the answer. It's a sticking plaster effect.

I suspect they get given a 15 page form to sign. But the compulsion is so strong that the implications, although considered, are dismissed.

There are lots of forums about how to get around the gate keeping.

But I agree. Personally I do see how surgery can alleviate symptoms. I think there are many people who are quite happy afterwards. I just think it shouldn't be the answer. Because of the lifelong reliance on medication and because if you do detransition it must be horrendous.

People say it's like getting anorexics liposuction. And although I don't think it's exactly the same, there has to be a better way.

A few months ago I read about the part of the brain that when stimulated alleviated the symptoms of anorexia. There seemed to be some kind of correlation between that and gender dysphoria.

And this is where the money should be going.

From the things I read, they have to sign to say they understand the high risk of infection and unreliable results. Its the perfect storm of men wanting to be the perfect women and surgeons playing god. I'm sure the results will get better, but you've got to feel for the people who are being practised on.

And I'm fucking furious that the medical profession cannot find a better way of dealing with this.
And it's so much at odds with the rest of the medical profession. A close relative of mine had a life threatening accident recently and I was told gravely of the condition and asked for consent to perform dangerous/life-changing surgical intervention if it worsened. They were fine - but the surgeon made sure I wasn't under any illusions about the risks. Why is it that SRS surgeons are able to be so cavalier about explaining the risks and the stark details to allow patients to be truly informed and perhaps change their minds. What the fuck is going on?

prawn

Did you read the account of the MP, Sarah Brown (auntie Sarah)?

It was a very scathing and self annihilating imo.

BetsyM00

I know. I find it unutterably sad. Genuinely.

And I'm fucking furious that the medical profession cannot find a better way of dealing with this.

Juno's asks 'where is the lubrication coming from?'

It is most likely caused by using some of the colon in the creation of the neovagina. How come I know this stuff but Juno doesn't!

Yes I suppose the severity and seriousness of this brutal surgery. Imagine if he stops saying " I love my vagina, I really love my vagina, which is lucky because it’s one of one." every five minutes he might think "O Noooooo! What the FUCK have I done!?!!!"

What a devastating thought. He says he is unable to orgasm amongst everything else and the SRS clinic sounds like something out of a horror film.

All that anguish, physical and mental, and he never once got to use it for sex - which was why he had the surgery in the first place. Now, of course, it's healed so much that penetration is impossible. It's so sad.

I think he has to convince himself or he'd crack up, poor misguided bloke, Lions. It sounds unspeakably unpleasant.

God Prawn the way Juno keeps repeating the mantra of "I love my vagina, I really love my vagina, which is lucky because it’s one of one." - is that an ironic poetic device or is the author unaware that they sound like they are trying to convince themselves?

Datun, for an astonishing insight into how one MTT feels about his neovagina, read what Juno has to say.

Juno has ended up with a result that sounds utterly appalling but, having had sexual dreams about having a vagina since his teens, he's happy.

There's a lot I don't click on!
Like me too - but some things I've seen long ago - when I was none the wiser - I still can't unsee!

GuardianLions

There's a lot I don't click on! Too squeamish.

I don't doubt that it goes on, I just don't really understand it.

I'm just not sure about the masochism bit. On the other hand, masochism generally doesn't make much sense to me.

If you look at Mapplethorp''s photos or look into male genital modification in S&M fetishism your stomach would churn!

"When I say trans, though, I'm referring to the ones that I believe are taking hormones and are looking into some sort of surgery, whether that's breasts and/or final surgery."

But that's not what being transgender means anymore. There are no clear definitions on anything. Man, woman, female, male, transgender, lesbian, gay, straight, biological sex. These words are losing their meaning as we understand them.

It's one of the things that only men do. Very few women do massively destructive - or self destructive - things for sexual kicks.

This is one of the reasons why the sexual motivation is either overlooked or not truly appreciated, by woman.

Women find it inconceivable quite how far men are prepared to go for sexual fulfilment.

I was reading about genital surgery almost being an ultimate expression of masochism. Although I must admit, even I found that hard to swallow.

But surgery is very definitely often a sex goal for someone with AGP. I'm just not sure about the masochism bit. On the other hand, masochism generally doesn't make much sense to me.

When I say trans, though, I'm referring to the ones that I believe are taking hormones and are looking into some sort of surgery, whether that's breasts and/or final surgery.

I know of one gay guy who dresses up like a woman (not drag) on nights out every so often. He seems to really enjoy the attention, but I don't believe he fully ever wants to transition.

It doesn't surprise me at all that men might transition purely to gratify a fetish. Men are constantly going to enormous lengths for sexual reasons, from the respected family man who runs off with a teenager to the paedophiles who train for many years and at great cost to enter professions that will give them access to children.

It's one of the things that only men do. Very few women do massively destructive - or self destructive - things for sexual kicks.

I also don't think Hermit realises that many if us were totally trans supportive for years but have had our eyes opened by the recent huge explosion of trans rights and trans awareness in the media. Reading online trans forums, following and talking to transfolk online has made many former unquestioning trans allies start to reevaluate our views.

Hemit - no kne here means you any harm but you ask us to put ourselves in your shoes - i rarely see transwomen trying to understand our views, how the current transactivism is negatively affecting women and girls. Most only are interested in trans rights and even crow when they feel they have won against concerns women raise. As in the recent ttranswomen/girl sporting successes.

"I don't see why someone would make a permanent decision to transition if it was all about a sexual fetish".

Many are just part timers though - and never fully transition. The India Willoughby article had many part timers insisting they needed the right to use women's loos even if they mostly lived and dressed as male for their everday lives. Their only "transition" was to dress as women perhaps for a night out or at the weekend. Absolutely no thought given to how this affects women.