Cis labels

Finally! I've been trying to re-find this link, as this author absolutely encapsulates the problem with the term 'cis' for me. Beautifully argued, very logical, and makes me want to read Simone De Beauvoir’s ‘The Second Sex’.

genderapostates.com/cissexism-and-you/

Its interesting. Of all the discrimination and abuse they face and the inability to obtain adequate health care, they save their real anger for radical feminists. I've heard even seemingly rational trans say terf.

I actually had no idea what TERF was until I started posting here. I had read it online, but never bothered to find out what it meant.

Some of that language is absolutely vulgar. Some of the stuff I'm reading in 'Erasing female biology' cannot be serious. I've never read anything this extreme in my life.

If you're shocked that TRAs should threaten women with rape, violence, even murder, Phyllis, I suggest a little browse on TERF is a slur, a collection of TRA abuse.

I'd assumed Danielle Muscato was a spoof.

I know everyone transitions differently, but I do find it strange how she was Dave the atheist a few years ago, commentating on Fox News & CNN. She's now in a woman's shelter. Her twitter pic and video are highlighting a jumper she's wearing that says 'Black Lives Matter' which to me feels mocking (I know there are white BLM activists). I can't connect the dots, something doesn't feel legitimate.

I half expect to read about this in VICE in a few years time.

"But without those two what would actually be the reason? What's the point?"

To get attention, to intimidate women, to "be" someone, to highlight the ridiculousness of it all, because he want a YouTube account but doesn't have anything interesting to say? Who knows.

I still don't get it. What is the motivation behind DM? I realise you don't officially have to have either AGP or gender dysphoria.

But without those two what would actually be the reason? What's the point?

Ok. ThinkAboutItTomorrow. Thank you. Although I'm still a little unclear. Are men and women not the main category and trans a subset of that?

No one can define what is a legitimate trans person under the ideology of self definition, only the person themselves. Danielle states that Danielle sincerely identifies as a woman. I read about a Green Party conference where the panel asked for questions from women as there had been mostly men speaking, and a male stood up and said I'm a woman, I present as male but identify as female, and no one batted an eyelid.

Datun

Sorry to be slow, damn work getting in the way of mumsnetting!

If there is a minority of a bigger group with a condition then the majority by definition don't have that condition. So in the total population of people once you define a subset everyone else fits into a different subset and that will have a label. So for kids with SEN we call the subset of everyone else NT.

So whilst I don't like CIS there is a subset of people who are not transgender. For me it doesn't equate to gender conforming but to sex conforming. I don't suffer from body dysmorphia,
I don't feel I should have a different set of sexual characteristics than those I have.
I'm far from gender typical and don't believe gender is inherent.
.

So Phylis, if Danielle is not a "legitimate" trans woman, then what are the markers of a "legitimate" trans woman?

If it rests on feelings, then I can assure you that Danielle deeply and sincerely believes that Danielle is a woman as Danielle understands women to be. 100%. It's not trolling.

If it rests on presentation, ie long hair, dresses, no facial hair, then what you are saying is that women who don't look like this aren't women either. And you know that's not true.

Mate, the emperor has no clothes on at all. Not a dress, not a trouser suit. No clothes. Nekkid. You know it. You just don't want to be "rude".

Be rude. Women need to be rude more often.

*Cis not did

I am not did. It's a term I deeply object to. I am me. One of the facets of my identity is woman. I also hate the phrase "check your privilege." It is not a race to the bottom as to who has been oppressed more and in my experience is very rarely something women say to each other, but is used by TAs to get women to STFU. Does the fact that I'm not Jewish make my opinion that the Holocaust was a horrifying atrocity that should never be allowed to be repeated any less valid?

But there isn't just two definition of being trans - agp and dysphonia. It's anything anyone wants it to be. They could be as many definitions as they are trans people.

Individuals with AGP might have bottom surgery to achieve the ultimate aim of being the woman of their fantasy. And they love to present as hyper sexualised women.

Transwomen with gender dysphoria might have bottom surgery to eliminate their male genitalia. They too, would prefer to present as women, although not hypersexualised.

But I don't see how Danielle Muscato fits either of these.

I totally get the premise that if you truly think you are a woman there is no reason to wear feminine clothing, because women often don't.

But as I don't think any of these people truly think they are women, I don't get Danielle's angle.

He could be a chancer, as Phyllis suggests. But his investment in the movement makes me think that unlikely.

So I don't get it. And neither do any of the transactivists. They're outraged by him.

Hi Phyllis

Welcome back. You are definitely going to come up against arguments you don't like. But don't lose heart.

I am aware of the US laws, but surely if someone in the US saw her in the toilets then they wouldn't presume that she was trans.

I am in no way saying that everyone has to conform to a certain look. There just appears to be a lot of red flags with Danielle.

I'm shocked that anyone advocating for trans rights would threaten anyone else with rape. That's terrible. It undermines what they're trying to argue for and support.

Phyllis the US now have gender identity laws in place which means legally Danielle is a woman. Anybody asking him to leave the ladies toilet or changing rooms could be charged with a hate crime.

It's not about a stereotypical view of a woman. It's going back to that idea that if Danielle walked into a ladies toilet, women would say something.

No, because transactivists will call them "terfs", threaten them with rape, and/or sue them if they object to a man's presence in the women's toilet.

That is exactly the only thing that transactivism is all about: Forcing women to accept penis in our spaces. All spaces. Not just toilets but also showers, prison cells, et cetera.

There is really no reason to believe that Danielle is not entirely sincere about his woman identity.
Transwomen do not have to
-wear long hair or wigs
-shave their beard

• wear makeup
• wear heels or dresses
• wear padded bras
• have breast implants
• take oestrogen
• tuck their penis
• have genital surgery

PhyllisNights wrote - "Imitator/Imitation would go back to this idea that trans people can help how they are and that it's a choice."

I disagree with you. I don't think the imitation must link to transgender being either a choice or not a choice. People often imitate other people even if it is not a conscious choice.

The imitation of women by male transgender people includes altering a male body to look only superficially like a female body but it cannot actually become a female body. For example, a male transperson's so-called "neo-vagina" cannot perform the same biological functions as a vagina, especially its role in childbirth.

Surgery on male transgender people will not magically create a real vagina, just because that person believes their transgender status is not a choice. Deceiving transgender people into thinking their surgery is not an imitation only comes back to haunt the transgender person in particular and society in general.

Nowadays, many male transgender people choose to not bother making their body look even superficially like a woman's body.

At last, I have found my people

Cannot stand the 'cis' thing.

Yes many of us who were very trans accepting in the past have become suspicious and jaded due to the actions of TAs. Its harmful for everyone. I can't really think of another 'prejudice' that people go backwards on. Previously tolerant people don't suddenly become homophobic.

It's not about a stereotypical view of a woman. It's going back to that idea that if Danielle walked into a ladies toilet, women would say something. And from what I've read online, I don't feel as if Danielle is being entirely legit. It appears that Danielle is trolling and therefore discrediting genuine people who identify as trans.

To be trans, one just has to identify as trans. Nothing more. Muscato is doing just that.

I wouldn't expect a women to dress or act a certain way, why ask that of a trans person?

Danielle Muscato is what you get when you believe that transwomen are women.

Real women can: Wear suits, sensible shoes, not use make up and have beards, and they're still women, obviously.

Muscato does the same things. While being actually a biological male.

I can't say I am baffled by the fact that Muscato is considered a woman by transactivists. It is the logical outcome of the whole nonsense ideology.