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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cis labels

261 replies

sooperdooper · 24/04/2017 21:57

I'm kind of new to reaching 'Peak Trans' and I had this thought...

So if, as the trans lobby keeps repeating 'trans women are women', why would they need to call biological women 'cis'?

If they really are female there would be no need for a distinction because by simply 'identifying' as female they would be

So they've made the distinction themselves by labelling biological women cis, doesn't that make the whole discussion about 'trans women being women' invalid by their own admission?

Sorry if this is totally obvious but I'm trying to work through my own thoughts on this

OP posts:
TalkingintheDark · 29/04/2017 14:15

What was the outcome of all that, Rogue? Did something change (just because you're talking about it in the past tense)?

VestalVirgin · 29/04/2017 14:09

And gay people aren't asking for the rights of others. They want their own rights. Their own place. They're taking nothing. Their rights don't clash with the rights of anyone else.

Exactly.

If two men marry each other, that doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't even matter whether they are actually gay, or just heterosexual men who for some reason want to marry their best friend.

With a male trans who wants access to women's spaces, we are not only expected to believe that his unprovable feelings make him an actual woman (despite his obviously male anatomy) and as unlikely to assault us as a woman - we are also expected to believe that no male would ever lie about "feeling like a woman".

WhereYouLeftIt · 29/04/2017 14:05

" I find myself constantly comparing trans to being gay. It's something that I can't seem to help."
And that is why the first thing the transactivists did was to attach themselves to the LGB community. Using them as a cloak of respectability - or these days, more like a human shield.

RogueBiscuit · 29/04/2017 14:01

I've mentioned this previously but my daughter became an avid supporter when a boy at her school claimed he was a girl. She didn't know him prior to this, but suddenly he was the centre of attention in the girls group and was allowed to listen to them talking about personal issues like boys and periods.

My daughter became totally wrapped up in it and it started to affect our relationship. When I questioned how he had periods she called me a transphobe and a bigot. I couldn't understand how an intelligent teenager looked at the male in front of her and believed he was a girl, let alone had periods.

I don't think she ever did really believe it, but I do think she believed she was championing the underdog and doing the right thing. Also there was no room for her to object, it was like a cult and saying something would have been social suicide.

I don't think this was anything to do with trans. I think it was about a male pupil who discovered this was a way into the girls group(and girls minds) and a way to bully them. My daughter dutifully watched her language and pretty much apologized for existing. The girls would quickly turn on each other on his suggestion that one of them had offended him. And he was offended a lot.

As is typical, he stayed away from the boys and didn't try to convince them he was a girl or ask them personal questions. I bet he loved every minuite of it. I still feel angry now when I think about it.

WankingMonkey · 29/04/2017 13:34

Absolutely everybody can see whether 99.5% of people are male or female. A rapist (who is male) can identify his potential victims by their female sex which is obvious to all. Not because they 'identify as women'

This reminds me of the heartbreaking account of a transmans rape (I don't have the link but it was posted on here) where they told the rapist over and over that they were a man but the rapist did not take that into account and continued to rape them...

Gender identity means nothing.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/04/2017 11:43

That was very well explained, Gallavich. As I've said before, Phyllis, I'm a lifelong LGB supporter and I've been where you are. My initial reaction to the trans phenomenon was uncritical support. It was only when I found out more and things started to jar, that I began to change my mind.

Thing is, gay people only want to be free to be themselves. They don't require surgery or serious medication, whereas trans people feel the need not to be themselves, but to be someone completely different. This overwhelming need to escape the self - even reality - is deeply unhealthy. You see it in sexually abused teenage girls who "escape" sexualisation through transition, you see it in ex-forces husbands and fathers who give themselves a new pornstar name and, in a seemingly out of character move, desert their families.

So that's one difference between LGB and T. Another is that gay people, in fighting for their rights, never sought to remove anyone else's. For example, gay men, who genuinely do sometimes face violence in the loo, never insisted women share ours with them.

The transgender lobby, however, is all about removing rights from others - overwhelmingly women and girls. And this has its roots in the claim that "TW are women", because once you accept that then men gain access to every sex-segregated area: sports, showers, prisons, psychiatric wards where women are particularly vulnerable, refuges. Everything.

Trans rights directly affect women's rights, and more and more women are fighting back. It's not a fight women started. Had transactivists not insisted on being treated exactly like women then we could've run along with no real conflict. But now we're in the position that any dissension from the trans cult's approved language and agenda gets you threats, insults and may even cause real life problems.

The third main difference is children. Had LGB campaigners tried to claim that toddlers were clearly lesbian I can't imagine how bad the reaction would have been. Co-opting kids to identity politics is a new low. It is this last manifestation that I think will eventually halt the trans juggernaut, when people become aware how unethical and experimental the "treatments" are. I just hope it happens before too many young adults damage their healthy bodies and sexual function.

Datun · 29/04/2017 11:35

Yes, being gay doesn't insist on everyone else changing their perception. I automatically accept someone is gay if they say so.

And gay people aren't asking for the rights of others. They want their own rights. Their own place. They're taking nothing. Their rights don't clash with the rights of anyone else.

On the contrary. Their own rights are being eroded by the trans-ideology. Lesbians expected to have sex with men, for instance.

Gallavich · 29/04/2017 10:18

Phyllis, that's really common. I struggled with this for ages. It's cognitive dissonance- trying to hold two contradictory views at the same time.
Being trans isn't like being gay. Being gay is observable, measurable and exists in all human populations without reference to culturally constructed gender roles. Being trans is self defined, not measurable and exists only in relation to culturally constructed gender roles.

PhyllisNights · 29/04/2017 09:58

Thank you all, it means a lot.

I don't see the LGBT friends in person anymore (I'm not going out to bars/clubs because I'm pregnant), but they do crop up on Facebook and WhatsApp. Social media really does play a huge part in all of this.

I do struggle with what is fact when it comes to this issue. My conscious bites away at me all the time. I know trans women are technically men, but I find myself constantly comparing trans to being gay. It's something that I can't seem to help.

Gallavich · 29/04/2017 07:51

Phyllis you weren't sexually assaulted because your gender identity is woman. It's because you're female.
Absolutely everybody can see whether 99.5% of people are male or female. A rapist (who is male) can identify his potential victims by their female sex which is obvious to all. Not because they 'identify as women'

You say that your belief that transwomen are women is your truth. And that's ok. But the statement 'males are not women' is also logically, factually true based on the definition of the word woman. Trans ideology insists that the definition of the word woman has to change, to include males, but whatever you name them, women exist and they do not include males.
If trans get the word woman to keep we could call ourselves something else and we still wouldn't be male. None of us.

Datun · 29/04/2017 00:17

A few weeks ago I would have found Phyllis's viewpoint almost incredible.

But having read some of the posters on the Exposing Trans-activists Facebook page but particularly the Critical Feminist Facebook page (it's less of a bloodbath) I see more and more women the same.

I was under the impression that the libfem trans allies were all just blind zealots. But as I see more of them questioning the ideology, many (not all) just come across as terribly nice and desperate to make everyone happy.

It's almost like watching someone pulling masking tape off their psyche. It's hurting, but with each incremental step their eyes are opening.

I see women explaining to them how the ideology genuinely harms women. Them mentally connecting the dots of their sometimes, less than ideal experience, is painful and bonding simultaneously.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 28/04/2017 23:44

@WhereYouLeftIt is right, @PhyllisNights - you deserve to be treated SO much better! My heart goes out to you - I wish I could just reach out and give you a big hug!

WhereYouLeftIt · 28/04/2017 23:03

"I guess I always felt like an outcast growing up"
Phyllis - everybody feels like that. Absolutely everybody. I know when I read this artlicl in last's Sunday's Observer, I felt a definite recognition of my younger self.

"That's not to say that I don't feel like I've been spoken down to in a way. I've been told that I'm white, straight and "rich". I have, however, felt that my gender has resulted in me being sexually assaulted and being disadvantaged in the workplace, which I don't think has ever been taken into consideration. Anytime I've tried to debate that, I've been told I'm "privileged"."
So let me get this straight. Your 'friends' - gay men, trans-identifying men - are gaslighting you into believing that they are the underdogs, when YOU are the one who's been sexually assaulted and sexually discriminated against? But they pooh-pooh that and tell you that you're privileged?

Phyllis love, what's wrong with that picture? These people are NOT your friends. They are a bunch of self-absorbed arseholes, who play on your generous nature. Frankly, you sound to me as if you are seriously lacking in self-esteem, and they are making bloody sure that you don't build any up, by constantly knocking you down. They are not your friends.

CharlieSierra · 28/04/2017 21:56

If I even attempted to go down the... you can be racist against white peoples route, I'd honestly feel like I was on the path to being lynched

I wouldn't go there, but I would do some reading if necessary and hone my feminist arguments. Honestly he sounds a dick.

WankingMonkey · 28/04/2017 21:42

Regardless of what has been said to me, I feel sympathy for other people. I always have done. I root for the underdog.

I know it may seem ridiculous to some of you, but I always feel like I have to apologise and be mindful.

Thats your female socialization showing Wink

This is why the whole trans juggernaut has got as far as it has. Along with the fact that it only impacts females. If this affected males in any way it would have been stopped before the first idiot spoke the word 'demigender' or whatever the fuck it is. There is a link thats been posted on threads like this that I haven't saved, but its about females who were using the male loos at uni. the males were uncomfortable so it was stopped. None of this 'you must be tolerant' or 'they are going through a lot, try to understand' or even 'STFU you bigots'. just stopped.

PhyllisNights · 28/04/2017 21:35

If I even attempted to go down the... you can be racist against white peoples route, I'd honestly feel like I was on the path to being lynched.

Honestly, I feel like I was around a lot of rich white girls up until university. When I went to university, I mixed with a lot of different people. That seemed to widen after University. I just feel like I have to constantly apologise for being a white straight woman who possesses some wealth.

RogueBiscuit · 28/04/2017 21:27

I know it may seem ridiculous to some of you, but I always feel like I have to apologise and be mindful

Why do you think you feel that way Phyllis? Because some of the things your friends are saying to you sound pretty offensive. Your black gay friend actually sounds horribly racist, and I'm pretty certain he'd be in big trouble if he said that to someone at work.

I'm wondering if you feel the way you do because you perceive these people as society's underdogs, or if you are doing what most women do when in the presence of aggressive men. Which is apologize, smile, nod and try to appease them.

vesuvia · 28/04/2017 20:25

PhyllisNights wrote - "You and I cannot comprehend what it must feel like for some to be born male or female and feel that they belong to a gender that is completely opposite."

A mother cannot actually get inside the mind of the father of her child and feel the man's feelings, but I think she can confidently know beyond doubt that the father of her child is male.

Many male transgender people have used their sperm in penis-in-vagina sexual intercourse to become fathers - a win for biological imperative over "being reminded of maleness" triggering trauma.

PhyllisNights · 28/04/2017 20:24

I don't see the trans women as men, though. To be honest, the "check your privileged" has mostly come from a gay black man. He's always said things to me such as "don't be so white!" and "that's such white nonsense!".

I know it may seem ridiculous to some of you, but I always feel like I have to apologise and be mindful.

RogueBiscuit · 28/04/2017 20:19

Phyllis, I think you mentioned that you've spent a lot of time in the trans community. You also mentioned walking on eggshells and being told to check your priveledge. I think on another thread you got upset on your friends behalf by people stating facts.

You sound like you've been bullied by these friends. I cannot imagine being told to check my priveledge by a man, or listening endlessly to their rants. Or apologizing for using "offensive" language. I wonder how often your friends said similar things to men? Not often I bet.

BigDeskBob · 28/04/2017 20:16

It also smacks of - well if the man says it, it must be true.

PhyllisNights · 28/04/2017 20:16

I guess I always felt like an outcast growing up and that people judged me from school through to Uni. When I made friends with people from the LGBT community, I could sympathise with them in some way.

That's not to say that I don't feel like I've been spoken down to in a way. I've been told that I'm white, straight and "rich". I have, however, felt that my gender has resulted in me being sexually assaulted and being disadvantaged in the workplace, which I don't think has ever been taken into consideration. Anytime I've tried to debate that, I've been told I'm "privileged".

Regardless of what has been said to me, I feel sympathy for other people. I always have done. I root for the underdog.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 28/04/2017 20:12

It's irrelevant if you believe that trans women are women

They are not biological facts get in the way

You might believe they truly feel they are women and that is enough for you but that doesn't change the fact they are not and can never by female so can't be women

vesuvia · 28/04/2017 20:06

PhyllisNights wrote - "I do believe that trans women are women" and "I am speaking my truth, not yours. Please respect that it is my opinion. You and I cannot comprehend what it must feel like for some to be born male or female and feel that they belong to a gender that is completely opposite."

Is your truth "I cannot comprehend what it must feel like for some to be born male or female and feel that they belong to a gender that is completely opposite, therefore transwomen are women"?

If so, it seems illogical to me.

What does not being able to feel what a transgender person feels have to do with assessing and accepting which sex the person is?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 28/04/2017 19:54

Women is the correct term to use for myself and other adult human females it's the correct word and no one is confused about it

Transwomen or Trans women are not female so are not women so no need to call them women as it's factually not the truth the trans part of the word informs us of this

Cis is totally unnecessary as the vast majority of the population have no idea what you are talking about and totally unnecessary when you are taking about women as we all know women means

My mum (67) asked me what all this cis thing is about (surprised she doesn't know as she always listens to radio 4) I told her and she laughed and said what utter tosh and I agree

Apparently there was a similar movement in the 70's for men that felt they were women to decide what was actually right for woman

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