Pink brains and blue brains

So looking at a swatches for upholstery, curtains, for instance women will be studying two similar patterns, seeing them differently when a man will think they're identical - "They look exactly the same to me, they're both beige!" (leading to 'women care more about this stuff')

Do you not think it could also be that this is seen as a woman's task- picking furnishings, homemaking. It's possible that men can see the difference, they just don't think it's their "job" to be interested.

It's something I'd do. I hate shopping and furnishings. My mum often drags me round the shops because I'm female and therefore enjoy itasks my opinion, and I really don't care whether one beige pattern is nicer than another beige pattern. So I can't be bothered to look closely and offer an opinion. So I'll say they both look the same to me as a way of getting out of the deliberations, and in the hope she'll just make a bloody decision and we can go home.

This probably isn't too relevant but the "sitting still" comment reminded me of an exchange I briefly overheard when I walked past a couple walking with their young children a year or so ago. They were all running around and being lively, three boys and a girl, the girl ran into the parents and the mother said, only to her, "will you stop crashing into us, if you want to go to Westfield [shopping centre] be good and stay nice and quiet" whilst the boys continued to run about shouting. It's one instance I only saw fleetingly but I imagine she'd feel more compelled to show she could sit and concentrate on something for a long period than the boys, given that.

Having been a feminist since my teens I was aware of the bias society puts on boy and girl babies. I reckoned the world around them would encourage masculine qualities in my two DS so I poured snuggly affection into them, called them things like pumpkin and rose petal, encouraged them as toddlers to be kind, to share, all the qualities supposedly typical of girls.

I always loved playing with toy cars. I used to line them all up, making traffic jams, pretending to be on motorways with them and so forth. Had some lovely replica cars, my favourite was an excellently designed Golf. I also used to proudly tell my grandparents what make each car we walked past was when they looked after me. One of my brothers (both younger) also liked my toy cars, one had no interest. One loves computer games, the other and I have no interest. It's all individual personalities. Generally, it's no surprise children start conforming to what's expected of them for being a girl or boy when they're pushed into it so early, so many parents buying the "appropriate" toys from the section for one or the other, I've read of nursery and primary school staff treating girls and boys differently and telling them which toys to play with etc.

I don't support gendered brains for adults. However it is often said that girls develop cognitively more quickly as babies. Is this true? It makes them more likely to relate to dolls as 'people' i assume.

I had a boy after a girl. Girl was completely disinterested in the cars we gave her. Boy got given lots of cars for his first birthday which i hid immediately, as i judged we already had a sufficient balance. However he is completely fucking obsessed with the things. He also plays ball with himself with zero encouragement from me. I suppose i could have socialised him but unlikely. Just his personality i expect?

Lord thats funny choc

Dd was still getting dh to wipe her bum many years after it stopped being appropriate

I imagine that many men are quite pleased with the idea of themselves as logic machines built for spatial awareness.

Just a bit!

PoochSmooch

Excellent post. And I agree wholeheartedly.

There is often a massive resistance to the idea that one has been socialised into anything, isn't there? The very idea makes some people very angry. It's something I've seen a lot when threads about feminism escape onto to the main board, and socialised, gendered expectations are mentioned. Invariably, a number of posters will jump on about how feminists tell them they've been brainwashed into liking makeup or whatever, and THEY ARE NOT, they just like it because they LIKE IT and they CHOOSE to like it.

I am guessing that it feels like you're telling them that they have no free will or self-determination, and that upsets people. But I think they may have misunderstood what socialisation is and does. We all go through it - we have to, or we would be unable to function in adult human society. And it is gendered. There's nothing "natural" about it.

The outcome of the pressures results in people with genuine differences as older children and adults, albeit ones that in many cases can be altered again quite quickly. I think people prefer to believe they were born a way rather than guided/educated into it.

My boys would have had me dressing them into secondary school if I would have been mug enough. I've seen similar with other families

I have two boys - the first one is 6 and would still have me dressing him and wiping his bum given half a chance - I still laugh at the day he announced he was too tired, and I should hold his penis for him while he did a wee (he'd recently learned to wee standing up, but felt that it was a lot of effort), the 3 year old is an 'I'll do it myself' kinda kid.

If you took a survey of all the personalities and interests of my and my sisters children you would not be able to tell which were boys and which were girls - colours, favourite animals, inclination to sit still or run about, it's a total grab-bag.

There are a depressing amount of people who buy into the gendered brain theory. I've had a number of set-tos with people insistent that it's scientifically proven that they have a man brain or a lady brain. I've given up with one of them - she can cling to her lady brain if she likes, but it's ironic that she does so in the name of science, which obviously lady brains are less good at

As to why people like it, I think it's somehow comforting. My ladybrained friend likes the thought that she's wired better for empathy. I imagine that many men are quite pleased with the idea of themselves as logic machines built for spatial awareness. In a gendered world, many (most?) people are probably quite driven to fit with the expectations of their gender. They're happy to take their Ought from their Is, and go along with the idea that all this just happens naturally.

Hormones play a part after puberty - libido, strength etc.

I believe there are other physical differences, like eyesight. I can't remember the science, but women discern pattern, colour differently (better).

So looking at a swatches for upholstery, curtains, for instance women will be studying two similar patterns, seeing them differently when a man will think they're identical - "They look exactly the same to me, they're both beige!" (leading to 'women care more about this stuff').

Small, very insignificant differences that lead to a whole heap of assumptions.

Yes the problem is that whilst the cognitive differences are a lot smaller than the physical ones people tend to lazily think of them as the same, even mainstream reputable sources.

The largest cognitive difference lies in spatial skills however this is the area that boys get most practise in (from the heavily gendered lego to videogames) but even here after a short training period for the girls in the study these differences disappeared.

I often ask myself why? Why are people so intent on proclaiming that there are differences?

If you watch the Olympics, it does appear that male people are better at throwing things.

Well, yes. But Olympians are adults. They have gone through puberty, with its generally different outcomes in terms of physical strength for males and females. And boys are often encouraged in their thing-throwing from early childhood, so are likely to get more practise over time.

I bet that there is little difference in throwing ability in pre-pubertal children. But admittedly have no research to back this up...

My DD had a fiestness that my boys didn't. She wanted to do everything herself from an early age, her favourite phrase was "I do it". My boys would have had me dressing them into secondary school if I would have been mug enough. I've seen similar with other families.

xeno

Thats really weird

Ds1 didnt bloody move...number of times we thought he was dead!!

Dd didnt bloody stop....worst evening when i went to a theatre production of Staying Alive, ive never been in so much pain

Its all myths and legends though isnt it

My favourite pic (which everyone in this section has been bored to death with a million times...). Insofar as some studies have measured cognitive differences, the d values are less than 0.5 - so as you can see, the two distributions are almost indistinguishable (and as explained above, due to brain plasticity, you can't tell whether they're due to nature or nurture). For height, the d value is probably closer to 1.5 or 2 (and I would guess things like speed, strength, etc - there's approx a 10% difference between men's and women's world records in running events at every distance from 100m up to marathon - but again you still have significant overlaps - a good woman club runner will clock a marathon time faster than a significant fraction of the men in the field). Hence the "throwing like a girl" thing being a bit of a myth - sure, men on average throw further, due to testosterone, but the idea that women are physiologically incapable of throwing properly is a myth (albeit one that is then turned into reality by girls being discouraged from participating in sports which involve throwing things a long way - social pressures are enormous - think about the number of girls versus boys doing physical things, skateboarding, football, tree climbing in the local park).

The Baby X thing is really good, there's been further work done and it seems that gender stereotyping happens even before birth. I can't find the bloody study now, but one was done in which women who believed they were having male babies said they moved more, kicked more, and were generally more robust than women who believed they were having female ones, the control was women who neither knew nor cared what sex their baby was. When movement was monitored there was no significant difference in how mobile the male and female babies were.

If you watch the Olympics, it does appear that male people are better at throwing things.

I get pissed off with this too OP: people frequently saying it's "obviously nature"! I can't be arsed to argue though, I just say I think it's bollocks and do cats bum face.