Pink brains and blue brains

Going back to how we raise our children, I've been thinking and I definitely believe feminists can make a difference. By making ourselves aware how even newborns are treated differently according to which sex they are before we become parents we can try to redress the balance.

I know girls are supposed to be better at language so I never stopped talking to my DS. As a consequence they were praised for their vocabularies. I opted for gender neutral clothes and colours, and offered a range of toys. When DS2 was born, DS1 spent months pushing his baby doll round the garden. But he wasn't only copying me. Their DF was a very engaged father and a good role model.

I tried all I can to go against gender norms. However now they are adult I can see the effects of my upbringing are pretty mixed. DS1 is an alpha male. He looks very like my DH who was just such another. He won't talk about his feelings. However when a friend of his was raped she asked him to go with her for her video statement which says something very good about him. DS2 embodies many stereotypical feminine qualities like unselfishness and concern for others, but then so do his friends. There seems to be no shortage of caring, empathic young men who are in touch with their feelings. It's like to like when it comes to friendships, I find.

I only wish DS1 would talk about his. He still hasn't recovered fully from his DF's death, many years ago.

The one thing they have in common, and which isn't true of most of their friends, is very long term girlfriends to whom they are devoted.

dementedcommuter

That poor woman. And kudos to her for the self awareness she has displayed.

I read Helen Highwater's account of how she came to terms with the fact that she is a man. It takes a great deal of courage and some in-depth analysis, soul-searching.

And it may not be the answer for everyone. But we are treating the symptoms, not the problem when the body is modified to reflect inner turmoil.

Analysis and psychotherapy should be the first port of call. I don't understand how it's not obvious.

Powerful message

Prawn: I reckoned the world around them would encourage masculine qualities in my two DS so I poured snuggly affection into them, called them things like pumpkin and rose petal, encouraged them as toddlers to be kind, to share, all the qualities supposedly typical of girls.

I did that, too. We had dolls and pushchairs, handbags and dress up shoes.

My boys are still (very sweet, empathic,) geeky carbon copy clones of their dad. All my music, drama, sociability passed them by completely. Sigh.

Though DS1 voluntarily, without asking, cleaned his bathroom for use by visitors when our downstairs loo was out of action.

So how do you establish whether girls develop cognitively more quickly- is it due to socialisation and practice at playing babies, or is it "pink brain"?

I meant that people say they talk earlier, and interact more at an earlier age. Is this scientifically verified? I doubt being given dolls would cause this.

What about other species? Are there gendered gorilla brains? Or peacock? Or mouse?

If so, why are humans any different?

Humans are only another animal species, after all.

ugh teabag sounds like the professionals need to investigate 'neuromyths'

That's got to be infuriating. Teabagtits.

Try being a female autistic. Everyone including professionals talk about you having a 'male brain'.

Are you a teacher? I'd be horrified if any of my teachers came out with that to one another. I'd be surprised if they do at my school, they mostly seem very positive and committed.

I work at a girls school and a lot of the teachers spout that nonsense too.

KathyBeale few things irk me more on the subject of schools than people who come out with "girls are bitchy", "girls' schools must be awful" and so forth. It just isn't the case at all. Girls at my school (and others as I know girls at other girls' schools) are generall supportive, kind, and fantastic peers. Of course not 100% of pupils are but nor will they at any school, regardless of sex. It's grounded in misogyny and it's quite dispiriting that parents spout this nonsense.

I've been looking at secondary schools for my son and it's made me quite aware of the gender roles. We have a mix of single sex and mixed schools nearby and if I had a pound for every parent who has said they want their daughter to go to a mixed school "because girls are bitchy"... I have no doubt some girls can be mean. Some boys can also be mean. And the presence of boys doesn't magically stop mean girls being mean, surely?

Also my younger son - not the one who's going to secondary - does dancing. I was interested that at the all-boys school there were several boys taking dance GCSE, at the mixed school - which has amazing dancing facilities which my son was very excited about - the teacher admitted they'd only had one boy take the GCSE and most boys who choose the option end up changing. Obviously dancing isn't as important to life as maths, but I just wanted to show it works both ways.

anxious I did a masters in Ed Psych…and we found that boys were not better than girls at maths, but instead that girls were more likely to have 'maths anxiety' which accounted for much of the attainment differences in timed on the spot tests (but not usually in exams).

There are tests that can be done to find out 'innate number sense'…usually involves a quick flash of coloured dots and a person has to say whether more are 1 colour than another. These sort of tests show that male and female have equal ability.

I can't get academic articles that have functioning links unfortunately.

the 'battle of the sexes' episode 14 of the Infinite Monkey cage on iplayer has Prof Sophie Scott give a clear argument as to why the male/female brain is a myth of 99.2% of people. Sometimes it's easier/is a nice change to have someone talking about it rather than reading studies!

My daughter plays with all toys at home, actually much more with cars and trains than anything else, and she completely ignores her doll and buggy. But at her pre school the staff say she plays with the buggy and dolls most. When I visit I notice that the car and run around areas are filled with only boys and I wonder if DD notices and this puts her off. Or if the nursery workers are subtly leading her in a more 'girly' direction. I don't mind what she plays with, but it bothers me that she seems to be much more 'gender conforming' at nursery and I wonder why that is.

It was also very frustrating they associated a subject being perceived as difficult as meaning it was for boys. This kind of notion starts from a very young age: www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/education-research-girls-believe-genius-talent-male-trait-new-york-university-science-a7548621.html

There was a documentary by Professor Alice Roberts a year or so ago which featured at one point her going into a (mixed) school and talking to a group of GCSE students about A Level choices. None of the girls said they'd consider STEM subjects or careers and the main reasons given were "they're boys' subjects" and "they're too hard for girls". It was quite sad they were convinced they were "for boys", girls struggle in them and it became a sort of 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. As I said, that this doesn't occur in single sex schools shows it's nonsense.

The socialisation starts so young anxious. I had a few children in my reception class who were adamant about what were girls and boys things and if they were a boy they wouldn't be seen doing the girl things.

On the other hand most of the boys loved playing in the kitchen and would happily dress up in the princess costumes.

Re. the craft vs. science thing have a look at any Argos catalogue, these are heavily gendered - craft stuff is pink, science stuff is more 'manly' colours. Many children have been socialised into craft or science according to their sex before they even start school.

I trained as a teacher and the attitudes were appalling. From belittling girls for being bitchy and "girly" (I mean what the hell else are they supposed to be?!) to laughing at the idea that boys might be interested in anything perceived to be slightly girly.

It was depressing.

In single sex schools, this doesn't happen. In my school, Maths is one of the two most taken A Levels (and the grades last year were nearly all A* and A) and the STEM subjects are all well taken with many girls going on to study them at university. In the boys' schools I have good knowledge of, English Literature is one of the most taken and the Art and Music departments are very large. Boys are not "better" at Maths, let alone "significantly better", that's complete damaging nonsense, as is the idea boys are interested in science experiments and "outdoor play" whilst girls aren't. At my girls' primary school the worst thing which could possibly happen in a day was a "wet break" when we couldn't run around outside and had to stay indoors.

Girls and boys are not "very, very different" in terms of brains, if teachers are being taught this it's quite worrying.

I did a masters research project when I was teacher training about gender differences in children in the classroom. It was odd, as although I hate gender inequality, boys were significantly "better" at mathematics whereas the girls came out as being more advanced in literacy. On further examination, girls were more likely to choose activities like craft, creative writing and colouring where the boys were more likely to choose a science experiment or outdoor play (obviously not all). When I was training, we were taught that girls and boys are very, very different with regards to how their brains work and to teach accordingly, but make all activities available to both girls and boys so that children were offered the choice.

It's hard then, to challenge gender issues in the classroom when the collective view is that boys and girls are very different. Also, even if construction equipment is made available for girls, posters show female builders and male midwives for example, that's all well and good but then children have to line up boys v. girls after playtime, some are separated in PE etc.

It was all very interesting.

I think you can win the argument without recourse to the whole nature vs nurture debate. The problem is their isn't yet a consensus scientifically, just a lot of studies -some which indicate one thing and some another. These debates usually result in references and links thrown back and forth ad nauseum. I would also be very wary about talking about the brain in terms of certainties we don't even know basics like where does consciousness come from? What happens when we sleep etc.

Talking about male/female brains is a little bit premature no matter where you come down on with the issue. For me the argument was decided some 2000 years ago when Socrates asserted that whatever differences existed between men and women they were so slight that women should have access to the same opportunities and choices and men.

I think a robust examination of history and culture reveals that women's contributions have been colossal despite the handicap of sexism. The argument practically makes itself. In terms of what toys/colours/clothes children I think makes largely little difference. The ancient Greeks identified pink with little boys as pink was seen as an immature red which was linked with Mars and hence masculine, and the Greeks still managed to be sexist towards women. What IS of more significance is that boys and girls are encouraged to play together with a full spectrum of toy cars, dolls, outdoor physical games.

My 4 year old little boy gets a full mix of play and toys, some of his interests are typical boy stuff some is typical girl but really at the end of the day the distinction is meaningless at this age. This segregation is pretty powerful though, my niece of about the same age told him he couldn't wear a frozen t shirt because he was a boy. He was pretty unphased by it as Elsa is one of his favourite characters, we sing the songs in the car and it was one of his favourite films for awhile.

One thing that always strikes me as bizarre as when he was younger and had longer hair people often said what a lovely daughter I had, if I pointed out he was a little boy they would be mortified as if they had committed some grave offence I would always have to assure the there is no harm I'd have been just as happy with a girl.

Personally my little boy only does the racing round like a mad thing 'typical boy' behaviour stuff when he's short on sleep. Making sure he gets a few more zzzs usually sorts that right out. I wonder if all this excused boy behaviour is actually a misdiagnosed sleep deficit. Which might also explain why they lag behind at school on average too?

I don't support gendered brains for adults. However it is often said that girls develop cognitively more quickly as babies. Is this true? It makes them more likely to relate to dolls as 'people' i assume

Girls are more likely to be expected to play with dolls, given dolls, asked about their "babies", while the same is discouraged in boys. So how do you establish whether girls develop cognitively more quickly- is it due to socialisation and practice at playing babies, or is it "pink brain"?