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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you think it is necessary to have good analytical and critical thinking skills be a feminist?

161 replies

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 16:38

Lots of current "feminist" thinking seems not feminist at all and I wondered if it's because people are not abe to apply critical thinking skills to arguments like "Any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice".
Wondered what you all thought?

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QuentinSummers · 08/04/2017 18:57

I've worked out who that STFU poster is and then hidden the thread, have wasted way too many hours arguing with that one Hmm

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DonkeySkin · 08/04/2017 17:48

Thanks Datun. I just checked out that AIBU thread and it reminded me why I don't post in AIBU feminist threads that often - the anti-feminist trolls are so exhausting! Lots of good posts in there too, though. Kudos to you and the other women who manage to cut through the bullshit for the benefit of casual readers.

hmcAsWas · 08/04/2017 16:37

scallopsrgreat - agree with that completely.

birdsdestiny · 08/04/2017 16:35

It's the easier way though isn't it. Critical thinking can be a tricky beast. In the current debate on women's spaces I consistently feel I am on ' the wrong side'. It would be so much easier to stop asking the questions. I can see how tempting it is to just agree with the current ideology.

BeyondUser24601 · 08/04/2017 16:28

Love that post!

Datun · 08/04/2017 16:26

DonkeySkin

Wonderfully incisive post. You might pop over to AIBU where there is a thread asserting feminism is unnecessary. And most women wouldn't touch with it with a barge pole, despite believing in equality.

QuentinSummers · 08/04/2017 16:22

Thanks donkey. Star

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PoochSmooch · 08/04/2017 16:18

Fab post, donkeyskin. You're swaying me back the other way now! Queer theory was just flourishing when I left uni, things were just starting to shift from women's studies to gender studies. As part of an elective topic, I remember being made to read Foucault and I think Judith Butler ? and being very, very unimpressed because I couldn't for the life of me see how it helped with anything in the real world. But it was all the rage, and you had to at least pretend to understand it. Sure, I get the deconstruction of heteronormativity, and so on, but it's spawned some horrendous navel gazing nonsense too.

DonkeySkin · 08/04/2017 14:48

enough critical thinking to know male violence when they see it.

I agree Vestal, and I would say that women's shelters would never have been established had feminists not come up with an analysis that placed male violence against women and children in a broader political context, instead of accepting the 'wisdom' that had held true for centuries, that some men beat their wives and kids and that was just the way it was.

You could condemn it (and plenty of people did, even in a time when wives were literally the property of their husbands - many 19th C authors portrayed domestic violence with strong moral disapproval), but you couldn't change it. It took feminist analysis of the whole structure of the nuclear family, the law, and male-female power relations to give birth to the women's shelter movement.

Maybe in contradiction to others in this thread, I think having a coherent analysis of patriarchy is essential to feminism. Unlike radical feminism, liberal feminism never had one, and that's why mainstream feminism is in the mess it is in today. Having no clear understanding of why women are oppressed or the mechanisms behind it, liberal feminists left themselves open to corruption by anti-feminist queer theory, which is itself an unholy blend of postmodernism and libertarianism.

It easy to see the seductions of queer theory from a liberal feminist point of view: liberal feminists are aware that women are discriminated against, and they have a vague notion that this is because of our female bodies, but they are unable to go beyond the concept of discrimination to exploitation - to realising that the physical differences between men and women are the foundation of male exploitation of female bodies, and that exploitation itself necessitates the creation of not just formal inequalities but a totalising ideological system, which in the case of sexism goes all the way down to the construction of sexuality itself. That's why they try to pretend that pornography, for instance, has nothing to do with the perpetuation of male supremacy, why they try to cordon off discussions of sex and sexuality from sexism at all, and instead insist that women plaster on a grin and remain 'sex positive!' in the face of a sexual culture that is deeply negative for women and girls.

Thus, when queer theory came along to posit the seductive idea that femaleness itself was a fiction, which could be deconstructed linguistically and ideologically, they embraced that too, and now they accuse women who insist on the importance of the female body to feminist analysis of being the real sexists - because femaleness itself is obviously the problem, not male exploitation of same.

And that's why liberal feminists are ardently pushing laws that will destroy women's shelters (and every other sex-segregated space): they understand that the shelters are needed, but they don't know why. According to this non-understanding of male violence, one can oppose it, but one is forbidden to have a structural analysis of it, or indeed even to recognise that maleness and femaleness are material states, not identities. So we can see from this where 'feminism' without coherent analysis or critical thinking leads to: anti-feminism.

PoochSmooch · 07/04/2017 20:17

Does it set you free though?

Well, to an extent, yes. I wouldn't do or think half what I do without thinking I'm the equal of any man. Society doesn't always agree with me, and that's where the problems start. It's definitely more of an aspiration than a reality. So yes, sometimes when I'm watching a film and I notice that it dismally fails the Bechdel test, all I see is the bars of the prison...

VestalVirgin · 07/04/2017 20:10

Plenty of women can uphold the principles of feminism without engaging in the theory. They can and do fight for refuge shelters for women (for example) because instinctively they know women need them. They may not have the stats to hand but they have eyes, they have their own experiences, they talk to their friends and they know too many women are afraid of their partners. I don't think a great deal of critical analysis needs to take place for women to know they are being oppressed.

Not a great deal of it, no.

But enough critical thinking to know male violence when they see it.

When I was a little child and some boys told me I wasn't allowed to have the haircut I had because it was a "boy's" haircut, I thought: "Well, that's obviously irrational nonsense" ... or, well, that's how I would put it today. No analysis or statistics or anything required.

But you would be surprised how many adult women are incapable of recognizing that sort of thing as sexism when they see it.

quencher · 07/04/2017 20:01

It does sort of ruin stuff, Datun, but I've always been happier with the uncomfortable truth over the comforting lie! (see also religious belief and the answer to the question "does my arse look fat in this?"). The truth will set you free and all that. Does it set you free though? Or does it open your eyes to the prison you are caged in? Every fight a feminist does, is like nibbling away at the prison walls. Every woman has a cage within the bigger wall which is our society.

I think we are all capable of critical thinking when it comes to feminism. In most cases its what our priorities are. If it's not feminism, then there is no reason why someone would use it to think about feminism. It does not matter if you know what it's called or not.
For those who say that, they thought "that's how things where meant to be that way". This means you were able to think that something was wrong but decided to sit back because you had no idea you could cause change by challenging the status quo. You noticed it, then left it to be as it was before.

@Sandsnake isn't religious fundamentalist absolutist? It would make sense that the two would be similar on how they act and push ideologies. I think with absolutism, it offers comfort to its followers. There are those who create and come up with ideas and there are those who follow. This exist in all walks of life. Those who love comfort will stand against change because it messes up their routine and happiness. While game changers cause havoc.

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 19:25

Great post scallops and of course you are right Blush

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OlennasWimple · 07/04/2017 19:22

Yy, scallops

PoochSmooch · 07/04/2017 18:58

I like that, scallops. That's a good way of putting it.

It feels far more exciting and empowering to have absolute views that you can wheel out in any given situation rather than forming more nuanced opinions based on context, evidence and listening to others, that makes sense to me, too sandsnake. It's the easy option.

smilingsarahb · 07/04/2017 18:55

Probably as half the time I have no idea what people are talking about on these discussions. I have ideas I believe to be feminist (lots around women and work, and around maths education and children's toys) but perhaps my lack of broader critical analysis bars me from being one.

Sandsnake · 07/04/2017 18:53

I've noticed a distinct lack of critical thinking amongst pretty much all the 'social justice' type causes there are today. There seems to be a high use of very single track, binary type logic and argument. This means that there is only ever one 'right' answer to something, without a proper analysis of all relevant factors. Dissent outside of this does not seem to be tolerated.

I can understand why this way of thinking is attractive, to an extent. It feels far more exciting and empowering to have absolute views that you can wheel out in any given situation rather than forming more nuanced opinions based on context, evidence and listening to others. It reminds me a bit of the zeal of religious fundementalists.

scallopsrgreat · 07/04/2017 18:41

I understand what you are saying Quentin but I thinking being a feminist and critically analysing why women and how women are oppressed are two different things.

Plenty of women can uphold the principles of feminism without engaging in the theory. They can and do fight for refuge shelters for women (for example) because instinctively they know women need them. They may not have the stats to hand but they have eyes, they have their own experiences, they talk to their friends and they know too many women are afraid of their partners. I don't think a great deal of critical analysis needs to take place for women to know they are being oppressed.

Another thing about feminism, which carries on from that is the very simple act of sharing experiences. Validating your own feelings and experiences with other women. Again I don't think that requires critical thinking. Just listening skills. And empathy.

I think there is a place for feminist theory and the critical thinking as that gives us the tools to fight with and move things on. But not every woman wants (or needs) to be at the front pushing. If you go back to basics and why we have a need for feminism - male violence; gender stereotypes; injustices in law and mindsets battles can be fought on several levels and fronts - not all of them needing critical thinking.

PoochSmooch · 07/04/2017 18:38

It does sort of ruin stuff, Datun, but I've always been happier with the uncomfortable truth over the comforting lie! (see also religious belief and the answer to the question "does my arse look fat in this?"). The truth will set you free and all that.

As an aside, I wonder how many other political positions get accused of "over-thinking" as much as feminism does?

DJBaggySmalls · 07/04/2017 18:31

Yes, and I think its a core skill. Its not at all dependant on IQ or ;being clever'.

And no, not all women are feminists NeonGod73. Your definition includes Myra Hindley, wopmen who trans their children because they cant ope with them being gay, and MRA ap[ologists.

NeonGod73 · 07/04/2017 18:25

No. If you are a woman you are a feminist by default. No critical thinking required.

Datun · 07/04/2017 18:20

Definitely this. It is hard going when you do actual feminist analysis on the world around you. It's painful. It makes you question everything. If it doesn't, yer not doin it right grin

Yeah, I have to admit, it's ruined a load of stuff for me.

Misogyny is far more rife than I ever imagined. As soon as I analyse a situation, I can often see it stems from misogyny. Whereas before I would've just thought well that's the way things are - if I thought about it at all.

Coverup890

I really had to gird my loins before I posted on the feminist boards - I don't have a background in feminism at all. I only did it because it was over an issue where I had full conviction.

But feminism is a logical standpoint. It's undeniably rational, backed up with evidence.

I always read links provided and it's given me a far better understanding.

If I don't get something or I don't agree, I ask. I have no trouble disagreeing with people, but by the same token, I'm open to listening to argument.

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 18:19

I definitely don't agree you learn critical thinking skills at uni. Or in science. It is learnt but I think through having to discuss and debate ideas, that can happen in any area of life.
Blandly accepting what others say as "their opinion" is going to cause a problem
Lots of people on this board seem to have analytical jobs so I wondered if there was a correlation between liking analysis/feminism

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QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 18:15

Great article pooch. I hate the BBC think being impartial means having people on to represent batshit ideas as if they were somehow valid Angry

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PoochSmooch · 07/04/2017 18:06

I don't think anyone's saying anything about being clever enough or not, or having a degree or not. Critical thinking is a skill that people can learn, like learning to drive.

If you feel feminism excludes you, what do you think could be made different, so you'd feel it includes you? What could change?