Do you think it is necessary to have good analytical and critical thinking skills be a feminist?

The feminist theory that is discussed is generally through the lens of radical or liberal feminism from white women and rarely is there a different view heard this is a tired line trotted out to get women to STFU. How would you know what ethnicity anyone is on the Internet?^^
^^
I'm don't know what skin colour posters have but I do know that when there have been threads on here about, for and by women who are BAME, they have pointed out that FWR and much online discussion centres around issues that largely trouble white, middle class women. That very little consideration is given to issues outwith the framework of privileged white women and that intersectionality only gets discussed in the briefest of ways.

It's been a huge criticism by women of radical and liberal feminism that both are narrow in their focus and aims and that criticism was an attempt, primarily by black feminists, to open up the discussion, not to tell women to STFU.

So, no, I'm not telling any woman to STFU, simply pointing out that there is a creeping tendency to be dismissive of other feminist views and that there are consequences to that. That would seem to be to be an important awareness in any attempt at critical thinking.

In the context of Mn, I would be considered a liberal feminist. I understand radical feminism. I love radical feminism but object to the exclusions or assumptions that all women go through the same issues. By doing that I would automatically fall into the liberal category. I don't mind being in that category because I know it's by choice and understanding that led me there.

This thread was talking about critical thinking and whether people where applying them or not. I didn't think it was trans bashing thread.

Any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice it's not true which is why I agreed with the open post. Does that now make me radical? This would be at the basis of understanding feminism. I would not agree with making of porn. Which gets brought up a lot. It does not matter how ethical people might make it sound.

With Trans issues, am not ok with invasion of the female spaces but am ok with trans people being trans and owning who they are. Do I sometimes feel guilty that they are being treated the same way black women would have been treated? Absolutely. I think I would not be human if I didn't. At the same time question what a woman is an what it means. Also, does it mean the same thing to all races. Whether it more valued by some more than others. Am sure that would be critical thinking. I try not to draw conclusions, because ever time I encounter new information my way of thinking broadens too.

I find it alienating that so many posters on here are willing to write off liberal feminists on the untruths that liberal feminism is all about choice and is supportive of trans ideology."
Well, certainly I have not read or heard anything that would make me think differently to this.
I don't think all liberals think in that way. Anyone who understood the way society works, would know most choices are not made without effects of society.

Plenty of feminist theory stands together and transcends the various politics and is all the more powerful for it. Please elaborate on this. I didn't think they did. Am sure I saw threads on Mn aligning with Christian fundamentalist because it one think people have agreed on. But at the same time forgetting it will be the same group who will deny women the rights to abortion or contraceptives.

"( I was going to write "identify as ...but I'm beginning to find "identify as.. rather tedious)"

That made me actually lol

this is a tired line trotted out to get women to STFU.

Very much so - often trotted out by white women and white men too, which makes it ridiculous. Not only does this dismiss that all women face misogyny and patriarchal oppression but it's also quite insulting to the many WOC who speak on feminist issues and campaign so effectively. One of my best friends is a WOC who herself pointed out to me how risible it was that there are white "liberal" feminists who'd call her a "white feminist".

Added to that, as you say, how could anyone know what ethnicity someone else is on an Internet forum unless told? Slight inherent subtle racism to assume everyone's white unless informed otherwise.

That surprises me, Bert.

Liberal feminism certainly aims for choice to be something that women have but it's pretty fundamental to the exercise of choice that it's only valid if it comes from a place of equality. Women need equality first before choice becomes meaningful.

And as for gender, liberal feminism was founded on the premise that women's oppression arose from the construction of gender roles and that these roles were largely created rather than innate.

There is undoubtedly a feminism lite these days that pays little other than lip service to the notion of feminism but it draws from both radical and liberal feminist thought. It's not entirely without merit but it's hugely problematic for liberal feminism that it has been identified as a version of feminism lite.

The negative connotations with the term liberal and its association with pretty left based ideology and practice have impacted on the feminist terminology and have become mixed up. The idea of no platforming I would argue is more suited to radical feminist theory than liberal feminist theory. The collective coming together to protest and block hate speech is way more left and radical than the liberal feminist view that individual voices should be heard and that the legal and political framework exists should those voices express views that contravene law. And yet the public consider no platforming to be a liberal form of protest.

The implication upthread was that liberal feminists cannot see what patriarchy really is and cannot therefore abolish it. I disagree that liberal feminists cannot see it - we just disagree with radical feminist theory on what it is and how to abolish it. But on a thread about critical thinking, it jars that liberal feminism and feminists are identified so negatively without any consideration being given to what liberal feminism actually is. And it's happening more and more often on this board in particular.

Why is it necessary to be a radical or a liberal feminist to have an opinion on issues which affect women and/ or society in general ?

( I was going to write "identify as ...but I'm beginning to find "identify as.. rather tedious)

". I find it alienating that so many posters on here are willing to write off liberal feminists on the untruths that liberal feminism is all about choice and is supportive of trans ideology."

Well, certainly I have not read or heard anything that would make me think differently to this.

If that's directed at me then yes.

Is there something I've posted that you'd like clarified ?

Nice to see FWR going down the tired old path that there's a correct theory of feminism and that it happens to be radical feminism. I find it alienating that so many posters on here are willing to write off liberal feminists on the untruths that liberal feminism is all about choice and is supportive of trans ideology. And to have liberal feminism equated with sex positive feminism is entirely inaccurate and misses the nuances of liberal feminist thinking.

Being gender critical is not something that radical feminism gets to appropriate for itself. Plenty of feminist theory stands together and transcends the various politics and is all the more powerful for it. Please don't buy into the trans notion of TERFdom as that just splits us and alienates many who are otherwise sympathetic.

I'd like to think that I apply as much critical thinking and analysis to my feminism that any feminist does but the day to day reality of feminism for me is that my actions count more and feminist theory has gone from being front and centre to simply being an adjunct.

I also don't think that we have enough diverse views on here for there to be much meaningful critical analysis on a lot of issues. The feminist theory that is discussed is generally through the lens of radical or liberal feminism from white women and rarely is there a different view heard. That narrowness of viewpoint affects us all and lets our thoughts pass unchallenged. There's comfort in consensus and in not standing alone but I wonder if that sometimes obscures our focus and makes us unwittingly unwelcoming to other feminists or closed off to different viewpoints.

It's not lass.
It's someone whom I have always thought of as a man. Am surprised they said they were female.

"I don't think I've spent many hours on pointless arguments with you flowers"

I have! But Lass is not STFU.

Critical thinking is the enemy of capitalism/consumerism, and since that is the ideology that governs our age, no wonder critical thinking skills are no longer prized.

I've actually learned a lot about critical thinking from feminism and this board so I don't think you need it to be a feminist.

I lurk a lot and, Lass, that poster sounded nothing like you. Agree with Datun there.

The trouble is that critical thinking is sadly lacking in practically every area of our lives-it's not just feminism.

I certainly didn't think it was you lass. I thought that person had a bit of a downer on women, to be honest. I don't have to agree with someone, but their logic, to me, didn't stand up at all.

I've worked out who that STFU poster is and then hidden the thread, have wasted way too many hours arguing with that one

I am frequently very critical of feminist ideology. I would hope however that no one thinks that poster is me- even if for no other reasons than I never name change or swear.

Great thread and amazing posts from Pooch, Scallops and Donkey.

I do believe critical thinking is necessary for feminism as it is for any other political movement. I think that's the case whether we are writing theory, campaigning and organising, volunteering or fundraising, or just talking to people about issues we care about. If we don't think critically we can end up supporting all sorts of dreadful things.

That doesn't mean we all need to be academic though and I agree, sometimes that gets in the way. I did art and graduated with a head full of postmodernist bullshit which at the time I thought was irrelevant. Sadly it's turned out not to be, it's turned out to be the foundation of some very dangerous harmful ideas.

Most people are capable of critical thinking and I agree it's a life skill you can improve and which will serve you well in all areas of life. That story of the emperor's new clothes - it was a little child who employed critical thinking.

It's questioning whether someone's claims make sense and whether there is any evidence to support them. Whether their arguments are logical. If they are saying 'thing A, therefore thing B' - does thing B actually logically follow from thing A or is there a step (or 10) missing? Or does A have no relation to B at all?

If someone is making an argument that you don't understand it might not be you being thick, it might be that their argument doesn't stand up. Ask them to explain. The majority of arguments that are solid can be put into simpler terms. Those that are built on hot air can't.

Maybe in contradiction to others in this thread, I think having a coherent analysis of patriarchy is essential to feminism. Unlike radical feminism, liberal feminism never had one, and that's why mainstream feminism is in the mess it is in today. Having no clear understanding of why women are oppressed or the mechanisms behind it, liberal feminists left themselves open to corruption by anti-feminist queer theory, which is itself an unholy blend of postmodernism and libertarianism.

You are totally right about liberal feminism.

Though I think the earliest feminists didn't need much education to understand what was going on - men were much more obvious in denying women the right to vote than what is now going on.

And in a way, I still suspect liberal feminism is hindered not so much by a lack of analysis but by an unwillingness to see the truth.

• toll hunting, not trolling

QuentinSummers

Are they not who they said they are? PM me if you don't want to be accused of trolling. I'd dearly like to know.

@QuentinSummers I see what you mean about the thread. Something like that appeared on my screen about two days ago with this older woman saying things similar to the thread. I almost started a thread berating her but I didn't have the energy for it. Dh got the brunt of it because I needed somewhere to rant.