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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Do you think some of the driver for "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman" is to do with bad science teaching in the US?

369 replies

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 11:26

Just reading this thread on Reddit and loads of the posts are very scientifically naive. I can't decide if posters are being disingenuous or are just very uneducated about basic science.
It got me wondering whether the American thing of teaching creationism as equally valid a theory as evolution has generally undermined science and critical thinking.

OP posts:

Original poster

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 14:01

Interesting ferdinand. I've read that about the money before. It's interesting how the point of view being expounded in political and media lobbying is trickling down into discourse on discussion boards and the "acceptable" line in the public view. I always thought public opinion was more bottom up than top down. Shame the same trickle down effect doesn't work with wealth really

OP posts:

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 14:01

But if you're brought up in a community where conforming is rigorously enforced (and religious communities tend to be strong on that) then you are more likely to grow up ashamed of any non-conformity; are you more able to reconcile that non-conformity and shame if you believe you are actually 'the other'?*

Think that is a really good point.

Datun · 07/04/2017 14:01

Implying that women are weak and pathetic creatures unable to defend themselves against trans individuals? Y'all really try to hard to justify your ignorance

And 'Y'all' too!

WhereYouLeftIt · 07/04/2017 14:00

"Anecdata of course, but I have noticed a large chunk of people who are having/on the side of gender issues seem to have been brought up in a highly religious household - where they could have (speculation!) been brought up to believe that a literal soul is popped into their body, leading to an "explanation" of born in the wrong body."

I've always believed that a proportion of religious zealots are not actually religious at all but find the 'rules' of religion (faith not facts, questioning not encouraged) pretty damned useful in justifying their abusive behaviours; using the religion to hide behind. And if you were brought up in such an abusive household, maybe it's easier to find peace if you can totally dissociate your adult self from the abused child you once were. And if that child were a boy and you are a woman (or girl/man), that's got to make the dissociation more complete? And yes, add in the concept of 'soul' - it starts to make sense to me.

I've also wondered - everyone is to some extent gender-non-conforming. But if you're brought up in a community where conforming is rigorously enforced (and religious communities tend to be strong on that) then you are more likely to grow up ashamed of any non-conformity; are you more able to reconcile that non-conformity and shame if you believe you are actually 'the other'?

Can you tell I incline more to the perfect storm than the silver bullet ?

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:59

No SSR. That women as a class are oppressed by men as a class. Feminism 101.

SSR24479 · 07/04/2017 13:58

And if only I realised I had victimised myself! There's a name for people who think that.

Narcissists, baby boomers, the ignorant, scum?

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:58

And if only I realised I had victimised myself! There's a name for people who think that.

Yes. And they tend to be misogynists, internalised or otherwise.

SirVixofVixHall · 07/04/2017 13:58

Beyond. .

SSR24479 · 07/04/2017 13:57

That's good. Because we are fighting for women.

Implying that women are weak and pathetic creatures unable to defend themselves against trans individuals? Y'all really try to hard to justify your ignorance

Datun · 07/04/2017 13:57

Yeah. I don't get it? Feminism started to fight the inequality between the sexes

but now feminists use the biological inequality to victimise themselves.

Um, you've just said the identical thing twice as though one counters the other.

And if only I realised I had victimised myself! There's a name for people who think that.

FerdinandsRevenge · 07/04/2017 13:56

My personal view on America is: it's not more open to gender identity than the UK BUT that businesses and lobbies are more influential on the politics and there is more money being put behind this campaign than other civil rights issues.

Also our media is arguably more influential and widely distributed that any other country's and the media tend to be more lefty, liberal but not necessarily clever about it.. You also have a lot of influential trans people in the media.

BeyondUser24601 · 07/04/2017 13:56

"I am possibly being unfair singling out Americans"

Oh but they make it so easy... 😂

Original poster

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 13:55

I'm very surprised that my OP has generated this level of sputtering incoherence.

OP posts:

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:55

That's good. Because we are fighting for women.

SSR24479 · 07/04/2017 13:53

What? That literally doesn't make any sense.

Because I'm FtM* the only time my argument is valid is when fighting FtM issues, why is it not the same for you? Maybe a woman's argument should only be valid when fighting for women.

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:53

Beyond

Original poster

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 13:53

Who cares what it means? It's designed to be goady

OP posts:

BigDeskBob · 07/04/2017 13:52

"If you are genuinely a woman or man, why aren't you fighting cis battles?"

What the fucking hell does this sentence even mean?

BeyondUser24601 · 07/04/2017 13:52

Yep, totally identifying as an MRA...

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:52

No it does appear very much that you don't get it, SSR.

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:51

If you are genuinely a woman or man, why aren't you fighting cis battles?

What? That literally doesn't make any sense.

SSR24479 · 07/04/2017 13:51

Sigh. No it doesn't. It forms the basis of feminist argument. The inequality between the sexes because of biology.

Yeah. I don't get it? Feminism started to fight the inequality between the sexes, but now feminists use the biological inequality to victimise themselves.

Original poster

QuentinSummers · 07/04/2017 13:51

Um OP. Creationism still wouldn't explain transgenderism as it's unnatural in the eyes of the religious. and No, creationism is really really not given equal time with evolution in schools!
Thanks ferdinand. My exposure to US school scientific teaching was based on what I've been told by a very small number of Americans so could easily be total cobblers!
I don't think creationism explains transgenderism, I think that the kind of person who has been schooled to believe that creationism is a theory equally valid to evolution would have difficulty analysing the concept of a "gender identity" as they haven't been taught those critical thinking skills. As creationism doesn't stand up to critical thinking and neither does gender identity.
Maybe more people everywhere don't think that way. I am possibly being unfair singling out Americans

OP posts:

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:50

Cross post

venusinscorpio · 07/04/2017 13:49

But that contradicts literally everything that feminism stands for.

No, it really doesn't. Feminists accept that women as a class are oppressed by men as a class. This is an issue of sex, not gender identity. Feminism is a movement for the liberation of women from this oppression.

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