Did anyone else hear Helen Webberley on R4 this morning?

ads I am curious - what's your relationship like with your parents? Do you have a relationship with them individually?

This is so shocking.

If you'd have asked me at 15 if I wanted kids, the answer would have been no. 18, no. 21, no. 27, no. Then I got married. decided I wanted kids after all, and discovered I couldn't have kids very easily. I spent a decade more or less trying.

I finally have children. Being pregnant, giving birth and feeding my babies and being their mum has been the best experience of my life by far. I just didn't have enough life experience when I was younger to make a decision about fertility. I just didn't. Children shouldn't be making these kind of decisions - it's why we don't let children vote, marry, drink or drive cars before a certain age. Why is this any different?

Thank you for your post, Shannon. It is interesting to hear other perspectives on this issue.

Im a Trans woman who went through the system and im totally outraged at Dr Webberley. There are WPATH guidelines and NHS guidelines and Gender Identity Clinics are more than likely to refuse anyone treatment that has gone through Dr Webberley. She has no formal expertise in Gender Studies and in my opinion is putting people at greater risk. Yes gender clinic waiting lists are long but when you go to gender clinic not everyone who thinks they are trans actually are. She can cause other gps to lose their jobs. My own gp refused me hormones and i had to wait along with many who got to gender clinic. Yes the wait can be long as you dont get hormones the first time you visit a gender clinic. I do not recommend anyone to go to Dr Webberley and im coordinator of a Gender Service which does education, media work, lectures and public speaking and i always tell people yes its a long wait to get into a gender clinic but the wait is worth it to transition properly where you get the proper help than go to an online gp.

Fantastic posts DonkeySkin. This is the next medical scandal upfolding before our eyes, with the full support of ethics committees, the Royal Colleges and GMC. The utter uselessness of the panoply of regulation is exposed (honourable mention to the CQC for closing down Webberly but that's mainly because she prescribes online, not because of what she is prescribing). The RCGP is on record as considering pre-transition counselling to be conversion therapy. These children are being utterly let down by the medical establishment. It's a disgrace.

Children who have been on puberty blockers have pre pubescent genitals. Adding in cross sex hormones at 16 won't force the genitals to develop into post pubescent genitals because obviously it's the wrong hormones for what they have. I can't see how these children will ever have anything like normal sexual function. At least males with inverted penis surgery still keep the sensitive penis head and females tend to get enlarged clitorises but if the clitoris has never developed past puberty how can it function normally on testosterone?

SomeDyke

I believe that's right. Not enough material to fashion a neo vagina. Which would indicate no material that would produce a sexual sensation.

"I read jazz Jennings will not be able to have a full sexual realtionship or orgasm due to a prebubertal penis."
AFAIK (not having watched the program, just read reports of it), the sad issue for Jazz is that unlike adult males who have gender reassignment surgery, their penis will not be developed enough to do the usual flip it from an outie to an innie style neovagina surgery (with the tip of the penis becoming the ersatz clitoris I believe). It's a basic issue as regards amounts of flesh and skin available.

I admit, I don't know the issues as regards sexual sensation etc and development (or lack of), just the more basic flesh available for cosmetic reshaping issues.

That's one of the things that really worries me Stopmakingsense.

The assertion that so many children are quite happy with their transition.

Firstly, I think it's far too soon to tell.

But secondly, it worries me deeply that it's because they have nothing compare it to. And their lack of mental maturity could account for their acceptance.

Like giving someone a lobotomy and saying see they're fine now.

The way I see it is that whilst it may be possible to stall puberty and then re-start it if a child stopped taking Lupron, so technically reversible, it appears to be psychologically irreversible - 100% of children go on to cross -sex hormones. Those children also then do not go through a natural puberty at the same time as their peers, and do not go through the natural maturation period that their peers are going through, so potentially interfering with their normal development. And as many children's gender dysphoria used to resolve itself after puberty, now with the affirmative approach, that possibility could be taken away.

What I meant about the not stopping the puberty blockers, is they don't stop and not go on to cross sex hormones.

TheHumanRace

I'm not sure what happens if you stop the puberty blockers, because none of them ever do. They get cross sex hormones. They're said to go through the puberty of the opposite sex. But if course they don't. They don't develop penises or vaginas. Their current sex characteristics just remain undeveloped. 'Ovaries like shrivelled raisins' was one of the descriptions.

Cross sex humans in women, make their voice deepen and they grow facial hair. For men, I believe they can grow breasts, and their fat distribution changes.

If they stop taking the cross sex hormones, these changes remain. And they are of course sterile.

It is currently being discussed on another thread. Link below.

If you go to Zoloh today at 1624, she provides some further links.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3036489-Woman-attacked-by-transactivists-at-speakers-corner-part-deux?msgid=72052320#72052320

Interesting and v. worrying. What concerns me is the 'me against the world' attitude of the doctor....a Messiah complex. This is never good news in medicine, but we have seen it over and over in psychiatry and in sexual areas. Gay cures. Cures for masturbation. Brain surgery for conditions like depression or anxiety.

The certainty that I) there is a pathology present and 2) something dramatic that only a few pioneers can offer will treat it is always harmful.

It's chilling.

HumanRace, in my post above I provide a link detailing the emerging harms of puberty blockers, which are now becoming apparent in women in their 20s and 30s who were given Lupron as children to arrest precocious puberty. Trans activists repeatedly insist that puberty blockers are harmless and reversible; the emerging data suggest that is not true.

The blog 4thwavenow has excellent information on the effects of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, and how they (given sequentially) cause irreversible infertility. The basic mechanism is that cross-sex hormones, given to a child who has not had the chance to go through puberty, will permanently shrivel the gonads. In the case of boys, it also means their penises will never grow and they will be left with the genitalia of a child even in adulthood.

Thehumanrace

Puberty blockers are being used off label.

Lupron is the most popular and it is an anti-cancer drug.
So they are being used for something they weren't designed for specifically. They were also to help halt puberty in children who started it too young (precocious puberty). And then they were taken off them.

The long-term effects of puberty blockers have not been studied.

Statistically if a child starts on puberty blockers, they will go on to cross-sex hormones. Almost 100%.

Cross sex hormones are irreversible.

Here are several articles about it.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=Puberty+blockers+&submit=Search

Round of applause for DonkeySkin.

Transgender teenagers often present as a mental-health emergency. In the case of transgender children, time is an enemy.

As a professional, in another field, decisions made in panic and under pressure are the WORST decisions. If she means the child is suicidal, then that needs to be treated as a mental health emergency before untested drugs and hormones are doled out.

That Times interview highlights the power of transgenderist Newspeak to disguise what's actually going on in the rapidly expanding paediatric transition industry.

Newspeak: 'helped a 12-year-old to transition'
Reality: 'gave a 12-year-old girl male sex hormones that rendered her infertile'

'Transition' is a not a medical term: it's metaphysical one, implying a process of changing from one state of being into an entirely different one. And we can see how this word, which throws a mystical veil over what are in reality extreme medical interventions designed to stunt or obliterate aspects of the sexed body, actually leads people to magical thinking, such as when the reporter writes, with complete seriousness, that Webberley:

helped this 12-year-old genetic female to go through a male puberty

A girl who is given puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones will not go through a male puberty. She will not develop adult male genitalia and adult male bone structure. She will not start to produce sperm. To imagine that doctors can 'transform' female children into male adults is an outright absurdity, easily as science-denying as any flat-earth creationist belief (more so actually). What they can do and are doing is turning them into girls with stunted bones and ovaries like shrivelled raisins - and those are the known outcomes. The less well established but emerging outcomes of arresting a child's puberty and then permanently shrivelling their gonads before they mature are serious health problems such as osteoporosis and chronic pain (now being reported by women who were given Lupron for precocious puberty two decades ago) and possibly stunted cognitive development, owing to the crucial role that puberty plays in the maturation of the brain.

And all of this is being done to increasing numbers of children in the name of an evidence-free and in fact religious belief that it is possible for a girl child to have a 'male soul' inside her female body, and vice versa.

Webberley says: 'I've pushed as many boundaries as a doctor would ever push.'

Well, that's one way of putting it. I agree that what's she's doing to children is easily up there with the worst historical examples of dangerous medical fads, with the lobotomy craze of the 1940s and 1950s being a prominent recent antecedent.

I'm not keen on her analogies with abortion or cancer. Neither are comparable with childhood transgenderism which seems to be something else entirely. And in the case of teenage cancer preserving future fertility is always taken into account before treatment isn't it? So a bit uncomfortable with those bits.

“Gender is a spectrum, but most of us don’t fluctuate very far. Sometimes I might feel a bit more masculine, but I don’t want to take hormones to grow a hairy chin.”

Bit disappointing to hear a medical professional saying something so unscientific - what does feeling a bit more masculine even mean?

Transgender teenagers often present as a mental-health emergency. In the case of transgender children, time is an enemy.

But if it is a mental health issue then surely they would be passed to a MH specialist - she isn't one is she?

This statement also raises the issue of why we are encouraging children to change their bodies to fit in with their minds, rather than the other way round. If it's a MH issue then it would be the mind that we would treat, not the body.

I only found it by accident, thats why I mentioned it. It's quite a good solution to them having a paywall but allowing some sharing.

I didn't know that, thanks errol

Just adding, in case it wasn't obvious - my link gives full access. The Times now lets subscribers do this for a limited number of articles per day (not sure how many) - no need to c&p the whole thing any more. Just click the icon with the arrow in the bottom right in the app and then Copy.