How can I reconnect with feminism?

If you want to talk about refugee women why don't you start a thread? All you are doing is criticising others for talking about things they think are important. You don't appear to be doing anything constructive yourself.

Your agenda is showing a bit on the other thread you've been on today too. I don't know what sort of feminist you think you are but it's not one I recognise.

How do you know what women on here are or aren't campaigning for? More to the point, what are you campaigning for?

Yeah, all those campaigns against low conviction rates for rape, FGM, street harassment, domestic violence, women working and fundraising for refuges and rape crisis.

Which campaigns? Which feminists are raising money for refugees for example?

I'm sure they have, but they haven't been discussed much on here have they?

Who here is advocating going to trans forums and lecturing people at length on how misguided and wrong they are then?

I'm not lecturing feminists because, as it has been pointed out to me, feminism is a very broad church with lots of different strands, many of which have my approval. There are lots of feminists who have very valid things to say. I am not attacking 'feminism' - perhaps I have failed to fastidiously prefix every negative reference to feminists with 'some'. Sorry.

But I believe many of the most conspicuous and vocal feminists are failing to address the major issues which effect women today - that they're overly focussing on the identity politics and failing to actively fight for the concrete, legislative changes that would make lasting difference to a wide number of women's lives. Am I not allowed to say that? Why not?

Because it's not just me saying this - lots of 'feminists' are advancing the same critique. People coming from within feminist discourse like Jessa Crisspin and Gail Dines have said similar.

You're basically saying "feminism is whatever I say it is and if you disagree you should not be allowed to say so". This is a discussion forum, and my view is that liberal, third wave feminism is failing to do what I believe it should be doing. that's my opinion. Why are you allowed your opinion of what feminism should be but I'm not allowed mine? Doesn't seem fair, or conducive to free speech.

How come you get to attack the trans movement, and by extension some of the LGBT movement (which you may be right in doing) but no one else is allowed to criticise you? What is that about?

Who here is advocating going to trans forums and lecturing people at length on how misguided and wrong they are then?

Very true Prawn! It's difficult when someone comes on with the intention of derailing threads, sometimes virtual ignore is probably the best bet

Well said, Amy. I've been carefully avoiding the troll on another thread, while feeding one here. Just goes to show how easily threads can derail if you're not paying attention. I think I'll take my own advice and back carefully away. Turn on the patented MN virtual ignore button.

"How come you get to attack the trans movement, and by extension some of the LGBT movement (which you may be right in doing) but no one else is allowed to criticise you? What is that about? "
I don't think I do attack the trans movement. I read about it, and consider the logical impact it will have if certain aims of the transactivists come into being, and I post my concerns about those impacts. Is this attacking?

The attacking any campaign/move which is about women at high levels in the workplace whilst ignoring all the other work feminists are doing is merely an attempt to derail and set back feminism.

Indeed.

User seems to be here to derail and hinder feminist debate. Ignoring might be the best option, but as long as we don't have anything else to do, I suppose we can amuse ourselves and each other by pointing out the attempts at derailing.

Feminism seems to be almost exclusively dedicated to creating some more rich women while the rest of em can go jump.

Yeah, all those campaigns against low conviction rates for rape, FGM, street harassment, domestic violence, women working and fundraising for refuges and rape crisis, abortion rights (which it seems from another thread you're against anyway) and countless others are "dedicated to creating some more rich women".

The attacking any campaign/move which is about women at high levels in the workplace whilst ignoring all the other work feminists are doing is merely an attempt to derail and set back feminism.

Feminism is a philosophy and a political movement with well developed theories. Like other political movements, socialism, for example, there are various strands. Not all feminists think the same, and neither do all socialists.

Exactly, which is why people should be able to criticise some of those strands. You're basically saying people shouldn't be allowed to do that.

What, you mean you would turn up on a gay men's forum and tell them what they should do and what they should consider important? Can you not see how inappropriate that would be? As for telling people of a different race how to combat racism... That would be downright weird.

Would you criticise say...the trans movement? Or is that different?

Actually, I do have critiques of all forms of identity politics and the affect they are having on society. Unlike feminism, gay rights doesn't seem to be a philosophical school of thought underpinned by a political theory of human behaviour, so I don' t know what criticism I'd make of it really. But if gay people were being misogynist or in some way actively impeding a broader debate then I would have something to say about that. Why shouldn't I?

How come you get to attack the trans movement, and by extension some of the LGBT movement (which you may be right in doing) but no one else is allowed to criticise you? What is that about?

That's just safe space rubbish.

What, you mean you would turn up on a gay men's forum and tell them what they should do and what they should consider important? Can you not see how inappropriate that would be? As for telling people of a different race how to combat racism... That would be downright weird.

Feminism is a philosophy and a political movement with well developed theories. Like other political movements, socialism, for example, there are various strands. Not all feminists think the same, and neither do all socialists.

The underlying basis of feminism is class analysis. This is important to other human rights groups - anti-racism, for example. You need class analysis to understand oppression. It is particularly important to feminism because, as most women live with men, It's otherwise too hard to see the wood for the trees.

The reason second wave feminists reject the third wave is that it has abandoned class analysis, which basically guts feminism of its central plank.

You are getting pushback from me because you haven't bothered to find anything out about feminism before launching uninformed criticism. There's no point in attacking things that aren't true in the first place.

It really does seem that some people are very threatened by feminism and so if we move off the trans topic it's derail-tastic

And I'm not even criticising feminism, just a particular version of it. Is that not allowed?

Would you do the same to any other political group, User?

Yes, of course - and I do all the time. Are you saying political groups should be impervious critique? That's bizarre.

And if gay rights groups were, say, being misogynist (as they sometimes can be) then I would interject.

I'm saying I don not what your 'priorities' are.

You need to know what you're criticizing because if you don't your attacks are nonsense. HTH.

It's indicative of a widespread lack of respect for women that people feel entitled to join feminist discussions and critique our priorities. Would you do the same to any other political group, User? Perhaps you could think about why you might not interject poorly informed opinion into a BLM or gay rights group (given, of course, that you're neither African American or gay).

Why do I have to know the difference between some theoretical terms in order to criticise what I see around me?

This is why so many women aren't interested - this insistence that everyone has to be au fait with all this theoretical terminology before they can have an opinion on feminist issues. It's rubbish.

Going by the evidence, User, It's not you. I suggest you leave it to feminists to decide and engage in something you know about.

What is a feminist? Does anyone even know anymore?

I don't mean to be too harsh, but there is a problem and we should confront it.

1. Beyond a middle-class higher educated elite, hardly any women identify as feminist or have roundly rejected feminism. We should be asking why.

2. Feminism has become so fragmented that there is no longer any agreement as to what it is, or what it should be. It has descended into online in-fighting between different clans and the trans movement, which might seem very important to everyone involved but is of limited relevance to most people's lives.

3. The sex industry is growing by the minute and no one has any idea what to do about it. Feminists either embrace it as 'sex positive' or agree it's bad and then just get back to bickering about gender pronouns or the iconography of traffic signs.

4. Many feminists have problematically embraced capitalist values, equating female empowerment with individualised material success. In so doing, they hardly ever mention the problems affecting proletarian women, immigrant women or the women from minorities. Or many of them don't. Those that do are marginalised to the fringes of feminist discourse.

It's not working.

If you are not a feminist and don't know anything about feminism, then it is not your place to criticise feminism.

Simple as that.

Does it matter if it's third or second wave? Does that in any way alter my critique? So what?

And I don't think women's liberation is meaningless. Just that many feminists no longer have a meaningful concept of female liberation, or any coherent strategy by which to bring it about.

User, you are very ignorant about feminism. First you claim women's liberation is meaningless third wave nonsense. Now you say objections to trans ideology stem from the third wave when, yet again, It's a second wave agenda. Makes me wonder what you're doing on the FWR board telling feminists what we're doing wrong. It's not down to non-feminists to set priorities and, going by your posts, you're no feminist.

There was a time when feminists were left-wing - when they wanted to overthrow the capitalist system with its patriarchal values of aggression, greed and competition. Now it seems they want to join it.

If you believe that, then you haven't done much feminism yourself, but are mainly busy complaining about "feminism", and I have no patience for that.

Overthrowing capitalist patriarchy is a good idea, but since no one has a good plan to do that, in the meantime, accumulating some wealth and resources for the feminist movement and women by helping women get into CEO positions won't hurt.