Nordic Model on the Big Questions tomorrow

Anyone know the names of the panelists on the programme?

Someone groomed into prostitution at the age of 15? Nah no exploitation there clearly. FFS.

I'm not wedded to the Nordic model but I don't want German super brothels. They sound like hell on earth. I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of women from impoverished nations shipped here.

Also why is it when I go for a sexual health checkup do they explicitly ask if I've payed for sex? There must be a public health dimension to this question otherwise why even ask? As such we all have a horse in this race from a health perspective. Especially as the NHS is publicly funded.

Exactly venus

Why then criminalise men who want consentual sex with another adult?

There we go. That's more like it! This is your real concern.

Consent can never be bought.

Yes, child prostitution is a great model to base policy on.

I have a close friend who has worked in prostitution for 30 years. Since she was 15. Her friends and sister did it so she followed them.

She takes career breaks, she took time off to be with her children, she tried normal "civvie jobs". She goes back though. She has a whole wealth of life experience but wants the lifestyle that the money from prostitution gives her.

She has worked streets, parlours but now works from home and does tours from hotels. She is intelligent and articulate and had plenty of other choices in life but has settled on prostitution as her profession and has found a model she is happy with.

Sorry if this challenges your idea of exploited women but her experience is that the majority of women choose the profession.

Why then criminalise men who want consentual sex with another adult?

I think the ECP woman just made the point about health and safety. "Let women work together".

Good points about the Nordic model. It means men go to greater efforts to protect their anonimity. Far harder for women to screen them. Far harder for the police to trace the violent men.

Many UK nationals did it full time and many dipped in and out when they wanted.

Assuming you mistyped that as its bollocks

Maybe you meant to say that in the past prostitutes tended to be uk nationals some of whom did it full time and others dipped in and out

And the poster upthread was referring to a man paying €49 for as many goes as he likes...as opposed to £20 a go

Like its a fucking all you can eat buffet

What is to be done about health and safety GenderEqualityAdvocate?

Both the prostituted women, and those that clean the rooms (quite possibly the same person) have the right to a safe work environment do they not? Since body fluids are involved, that needs to include protective gear, hazardous waste disposal etc.

How do you propose to make it so that women in prostitution don't have a 3X higher rate (conservatively) of Gonorrhea than a similar woman who doesn't have sex for money?

If you have some suggestions along with decriminalization that actually do make it safer, and bring it into line with normal working practice I'd love to hear them.

Profession : "any type of work that needs special training or a particular skill, often one that is respected because it involves a high level of education" according to the dictionary.

Do you think CSA, rape, poverty, DV, coercion, deception, etc are 'special training' techniques for this 'profession' gender?

It is not a job? It is the "oldest profession'

Also I can't resist this sweeping statement:
Nobody silences the NM argument
That is actually so wrong - it's actually funny. How can you be comfortable gender making such a sweeping statement - that you don't even need evidence to refute it?

A most mundane (but shocking nonetheless) example is I once got kicked out of a 'feminist' group for suguesting reading a book by an exited woman who advocates for the NM ffs.

It's not a job.

Well for most it only ever was about money. The myth of a "happy hooker" who "loves her job" are largely that. Depreciating returns means that where once, sisters followed sisters and daughters followed mothers into the industry there is now a clear break. Amongst UK nationals there is a fall in women selling sex. That is a void being filled by women from other countries.

Yes I know about pricing. I have posted elsewhere on the different models. Out of that £20 fee in Soho, as much as £13 can go in rent to the flat owner. So you have women selling sex who make only £7 a time. I argue that this needs to be shut down and a minimum wage, price structure introduced

Oh an expert on pricing now advocate? Lovely.
Most UK and western European women now avoid the sex industry in the UK
Bwahahahaha yes women used to love a bit of sex work for pin money, it's only the falling prices that put us off now.

Falling prices in the sex industry is not unique to Germany. In the UK the prices have not changed in 20 years. An influx of Eastern European and other people have meant supply outstrips demand.

20 years ago the sex industry was lucrative. Many UK nationals did it full time and many dipped in and out when they wanted. Most UK and western European women now avoid the sex industry in the UK. It no longer is as financially rewarding. Globalisation has very much hit an industry where no qualifications or education are needed.

Oh and for reference you can buy sex in Soho for £20. Considerably cheaper than a German legalised brothel.

Also - you know those enormous unqualified sweeping statements like:
"just a minority viewpoint that has been largely discredited outside of feminist circles."

Are exactly the kind of thing the ECP/pro lobby come out with and get left unchallenged on panel shows. Noone asks "NM has been adopted by the majority of Nordic countries - how can that be a minority view?" Or "who has sucessfully discredited the NM? Please show me your sources, ones who are open about their funders?"
If an interviewer ever gets to ask something along those lines it will be deranged shouty meltdown time!

Prostitution affects all women. It should not be further legitimised.

From what I gather the situation in Germany has done nothing for the women and girls still working the streets either.

Hi gender
I don't know who most of the exited women are. I imagine the vast majority try to go quietly back to living a normal life and only a small minority become political campaigners of any kind.
Howevery, those exited who favour the NM are generally harassed and silenced at a horrific rate by the pro lobby.

Legalised brothels like the ones in Germany you mean? Where trafficking has increased because there aren't enough local women willing to do the work? Where punters can be 49€ for as many women as they like? Where punters can buy sex for less than the price of a big Mac?
No thanks. I don't think most people, feminist or not, want that model.

Most exited women speak out in favour?? What exactly are"exited women"? Most women in the industry and retired sex workers are highly critical of the NM model. They favour minimal intervention by the state. Currently they face prosecution if they work with other women and so are forced by the current laws to work alone and thus are put at greater risk.

Nobody silences the NM argument. It is just a minority viewpoint that has been largely discredited outside of feminist circles.

As for prostitution falling when you introduce the NM model ....well how do you measure it accurately once you force it underground?

Let the women who work in the industry be heard. Let them frame the laws. Legalised brothels where women can work together and work for their collective safety.

Lions not massively. I feel this whole full decriminalisation thing is about business and money, not safety.

soapbox are you as interested in hearing from people who are agency owners, etc who are not actually on the coalface but call themselves 'sexworkers'?