Nordic Model on the Big Questions tomorrow

hold I have seen things you haven't clearly

gender brothels, saunas, etc already exist- pretty much with impunity How many of these are 'women''s collectives'?
Why do prostitutes put up with using hotels at greater risk of murder (according to you) than setting up collectives, which they could do right now?
Why do you believe that decriminalisation of brothels, pimping and trafficking will lead to a proliferation of 'women's collectives' rather than just more brothels and saunas of the kind you mentioned no one wants to prostitute in?

gender I agree , and guardian your personal attack of cari Mitchell of the Ecp on p1 was unjustified and not how she comes across at all.

I am happy to admit I am a buyer. I advocate responsible behaviour in buying sex. Not going overseas to exploit impoverished women. Buying from independents in your own area. Preferably women of a similar age or older. Being polite, letting the woman dictate the meeting and certainly never pressuring the woman into anything. Trying where possible to avoid the women whose online profiles look like they are pimped.

Prostitution does not have to be evil. I post on forums with sex workers and guys who are better behaved than UK Punting (a site that banned me for pointing out that married punters are narcissists). I meet up socially and many of my best friends are sex workers I would never now dream of paying for. In general I get on very well with sex workers. They are good company and very non judgemental.

They should have the freedom to earn money as they see fit and be protected from violence and coercion

She brings in more than the average poster here

You said in an earlier post prices in the U.K have the same for the last 20 years.

I am very pleased the SNP decided at their recent conference to support the Nordic model for Scotland.

run their own business

Without H&S compliance, liability insurance, tax paid and pension provision, this is not a business. If you want to regulate, then it has to go the whole way, otherwise you're just throwing poor women under the bus for men to exploit because it's too hard to help them out of poverty or stop men abusing them.

Given so few prostitutes work legally now, even though they absolutely could, given so few prostitutes report crime now, what on earth makes you think that making it more acceptable will change that? What makes you think that it'll be women's collectives running these brothels, and not rich men - why would it be different here to in Germany?

I think we should try the criminalising of buyers

It seems to work for other countries

I think its heaps better than the german model

It does sound like you have experience of the issues gender im not sure whether as an advocate, sex worker or customer

But i think i could probably hazard a guess

No the women in "establishments" face a different kind of risk. They cannot vett the customers and will be pressured into taking drinks, people on drugs and working unsocial hours. They then face the problem of extortion, control and theft by other staff.

Independents who run their own business get good at vetting clients and get to choose hours and who they see. Because they mostly work alone or with a friend in a room down the corridor they are at greater risk of physical harm. Women who tour or just work hotels speak of "runners" fairly often (guys who once in the room overpower them and rob them), then nearly all of them will admit to have being raped at one point.

When you talk to women working in saunas as to why they give up as much as 50% of their earnings to the owner. Why they work long hours with a "drugs draw" on offer to them, they will tell you it is for safety. They do not want to be raped or murdered. In return for that they effectively let the business owner pimp them (all with the knowledge of the police).

There are strong arguments for women's collectives where they can work together for safety and share profits.

If she works one day a week and walks away with £500 and can still claim benefits

What she's doing is already legal - up to the point where she earns that money and then claims benefits as well, and I'm presuming doesn't declare her income for tax, or hold any kind of liability insurance.

As you point out, that's already well over what many families on mumsnet survive on, yet apparently, this hypothetical woman is doing the only thing she can.

This is a very odd example to say the least.

Plus of course, as a foreign national, why doesn't she move elsewhere, somewhere you can live on a supermarket wage? She has no family ties to London, the UK outside of London exists, and there are some very pleasant places to live.

Women get robbed, beaten up and raped in brothels, saunas and anywere else they are in private spaces alone with men who feel entitled to have sex with them. An 'ideal' form of prostitution doesn't exist.

Interesting insight into the mind of punters though - you seem very well able to empathise.

It is still not ideal. Women get robbed, beaten up and raped in hotel rooms.

Under the Nordic model men would not want to be on film entering a hotel or possibly have the hotel report them to the police for going to a room that a sex worker is operating from. Currently the vast majority of chain hotels turn a blind eye to men who visit sex providers on their premises. It is good for their business to profit from the trade.

So if these prostitutes already work together in this way without being prosecuted, what's your problem? Nothing in th NM would change it. They could still prostitute next door and text eachother couldn't they? No need for all your alarmist talk.

Hiring adjacent hotel rooms is too often how women who do not want to work parlours/saunas work. They work on the same hotel corridor and send text messages. Ideally they would share a flat or house but that runs the risk of prosecution.

I heard stories that a certain hotel chain by a London station think as much as 50% of occupancy is at times sex workers. In effect they are already a quasi brothel owner. They even go so far as to offer "day rates" acknowledging that the occupants only need it for work during normal hours.

Fuck, I've heard everything now. Prostitution saves poor women. I can think of many ways to improve life for poor women but prostitution is never one of them. Fuck off with your lowlife justification for the abuse of women. Is your mother proud of you?

Wow I'm going to look at everyone working at my local Lidl in a different light, since they must be prostituting themselves.

What other options are available to a mother of two. Limited education, Russian national, minimal family. Just her alone raising two children in London. If she works one day a week and walks away with £500 and can still claim benefits that is more than she could hope to earn even with a degree and average career. She brings in more than the average poster here but you would deny her that because you do not approve of her using sex and encouraging men to objectify women. You are out of touch with reality. You cannot live in London on supermarket/cleaners wages

BTW gender I thought the laws you are referencing were about profiting from prostitution, keeping a brothel and trafficking.
I don't think easyjet is going to be prosecuted as traffickers for simply providing transport to someone who is prostituted. Pimps rarely call themselves pimps - they would go by 'driver', 'boyfriend', 'agent', etc. And as far aso I can see brothel keeping laws aren't exactly enforced either judging by the openly advertised saunas etc. I'd be interested in knowing how many cases there are of prostitutes hiring adjacent rooms being prosecuted under brothel-keeping laws. And some other stats to back up your claims.
I think gender you are just using the horror people naturally have of violence against women and girls to get them to listen uncritically to your claims that don't add up.

It's not "work" and it affects all women. I would work to reduce demand by criminalising purchase and campaign to create pathways for women to exit.

Women in poverty are being exploited by these indirect economic forms of coercion.

Sometimes it is the only option that the poorest women have

This is what I would change. Rather than end up with what Germany has, which by the accounts I've read is horrific and no safer, rather than legitimise men's rights to put women in danger and infect them with diseases.

We have a social security system lets make it work best for the people who need it most, rather than make it work for men who want to exploit desperate women.

So, by your reasoning, just because its the only option, then it must be accepted and encouraged? Rather than look to make other options possible?

Sometimes it is the only option that the poorest women have. They manage through sex work to obtain a life for them and their children that would otherwise not be possible. They lift their children out of a lifetime of poverty.

You though to satisfy your feminist ideals would remove this choice. Women are not to profiteer or exploit the difference in sexual appetites that exist between the genders. In this feminist utopia no woman will ever use sex ever again to get what she wants.

Wow -You are really fighting dirty now gender

The only way you can think of, GEA, for a woman in that situation to survive is prostitution? Is that really what you think? You would suggest prostitution to women who are likely to find themselves in that position, as the best, or only, option for them and their children?

So what alternative are you going to offer a single mother, who is raising two children on the proceeds of sex work. A woman living in London, no qualifications and limited English? Currently her kids get an education in UK schools, she can house, feeds and clothe them and take them on holidays. You are going to drive her customers away and force her into a life of poverty. She cannot afford London and will most likely move to her country of origin which means her children lose out on the best chance they had to get a UK based education and escape poverty.

Some of you really live in Ivory Towers and are out of touch with the poorest women and mothers in society

You can however reduce the risk of robbery, rape, murder and assault. This is something you could campaign for on behalf of your sisters rather than misguidedly thinking you can drive prostitution out by using the police to arrest men.

No, I think I'll decide what I want my feminism to look like, not men. I believe legitimising prostitution is wrong. I also believe that it will increase demand, which will increase trafficking.