Can I ask a question about toilets?

Although I should imagine there are very many transwomen who do use male bathrooms, because they are not supposed to use the female bathroom without a GRC

I didn't think that was true. There is no law on who is supposed to use the female or male bathrooms, is there?

So a man dressing as a woman will get raped in a man's bathroom. But a man dressed as a woman will not rape anyone. Where is the logic in that? Male violence, is male violence.

Indeed. As of yet, no one of the rabid transwacktivists has been able to explain that.

There are some people who make the case for unisex facilities (which can be justified if one claims that men are not the tiniest bit more likely to rape women in vulnerable situations and secluded spaces than on the street), but I don't think the most vocal transwacktivists want those - it is more the male-pleasing female feminists who come up with this, because it looks like equality.

Well sure ego, that might be right. Although I should imagine there are very many transwomen who do use male bathrooms, because they are not supposed to use the female bathroom without a GRC.

But the one thing one cannot do is say that transwomen get attacked in male bathrooms, and then say but we have no evidence for it.

The only reason to question it now is because it is up for question.

Exactly.

And most women don't mind the occasional male who is in the women's toilets because he has to change a child's diapers or accompany his daughter, or whatever.

The main problem with the transnonsense is that it makes women afraid to band together against a pervy male, because he could always draw the "But I identify as woman!" card.

Given that I've heard people joking about transmen looking like Hobbits because of their shape, height and beards, I'd guess a small transman would find the gents pretty frightening.

Yeah, and I also guess that it would be pretty easy to recognize them as female. Those photos where they ask whether one would really want them to use the women's bathroom are often without any comparison for height. (And of course, I have no problem with transmen using the men's bathroom. Men might, I don't.)

Usual confirmation bias. People who haven't noticed passing trans people think they have never seen passing trans people. I can guarantee that most of the women who would go bananas about an unpassing trans woman in their toilets would do the same with a passing trans man (and there are lots of them).

It's all very well being idealistic about biology but trans men going into ladies loos would have constant problems from the other loo users who get stressed out by their presence and it would be completely impractical.

There isn't a single case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom in this country

There are transwomen who get attacked though.
And there is the likelihood that the reason there are no reported cases is because transwomen don't go into male bathrooms.

This means someone will post a picture of a transwoman in a male bathroom and use this to show that it's safe.

The fact that a transwoman has not been attacked does not mean that it's safe for transwomen to use male bathrooms.

Yet people frequently say that there is not 1 case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom.

Which is true because transwomen rarely use male bathrooms if they think they are likely to be attacked. I know the point I made the decision to switch toilet usage.

rogue you should put something round the text when you're quoting otherwise it looks like you wrote that :)

It's not a double standard to say that trans women look like males and trans men look like females. What are you on about? It's fact.

Personally I don't see why there needs to be a male or female loo. I would be happy using communal loos. Around 18 years ago I worked with a lady that had transitioned from a man and shared changing room/toilets. I never saw an issue.

I can see why women may feel uncomfortable with men in the women's toilets with regards to safety, however if a man wanted to go into a women's toilet with the aim to harm/rape then he will regardless of what the sign of the door says.

Also, can I ask about the double standards of appearance? Already on this thread posters have said that transgender women rarely 'pass' but other posters have said they would assume it was a masculine looking woman. Do you not see the irony here?

What double standard?

• Transwomen rarely pass - i.e. they look male because they are male.

• Transmen look like masculine looking women - i.e. they look female because they are female.

I believe transwomen are women and that no one should be gender-policed to be allowed to use a loo.

I really do think that people who believe men are women are seriously unstable. And cis is downright offensive.

Transwomen can't use men's loos because statistically the change they would be raped or attacked there is very very high. Massively higher than the chance of a transwoman raping a ciswoman in a ladies loo which is almost unheard of.

If you advocate to force transwomen to use men's rooms then you are actively trying to facilitate rape.

Holy fuck. I've heard it all now. What blatant lies! There's no evidence of men dressed as women being attacked in toilets. None.

I would feel,that the person probably has been to hell and back to get to that point..and I would show them respect for what must of been a difficult decision for them

It's almost always easy to tell what sex a person is. I have no problem with transmen in the women's toilet because they are nearly always clearly female. The very rare transman who passes would probably be using the gents anyway.

I don't know why it's women's job to sort out where everyone goes to the toilet though

prawn

Is this it?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/06/30/manhood-has-limits-for-transmen-who-prefer-womens-facilities/amp/

If you advocate to force transwomen to use men's rooms then you are actively trying to facilitate rape.

So a man dressing as a woman will get raped in a man's bathroom. But a man dressed as a woman will not rape anyone. Where is the logic in that? Male violence, is male violence.

There isn't a single case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom in this country. Not one.

won not once - bizarre typeo

The case of the transman (can't remember the name) has been kicked back down to the appeals court by the Supreme court. I have always been bemused that the first case testing this was for a transman, not a transwoman. I think, (with no evidence mainly because I have not looked), that to test the case for a transman will avoid the inevitable accusations of voyeurism etc. But if the transman had once, there is legal precedent etc and there will be an avalanche of transwomen rights campaigns

It takes a great deal of money to take a case to this far, and I wonder who has been funding it

pretty awful things suggested here in the past about mandatory gender checks and gender ID cards. I have never seen that on here and I've been posting a long time.

As far as physical safety goes, anyone being a "pervert" or engaging in any kind of illegal or anti social behaviour is subject to the same rules and laws.
Social norms do more to dissuade criminals than laws and laws only work after the fact. At the moment men know they are likely to be challenged if they try to come into women's spaces to be voyeuristic/flash etc and this dissuades them from doing it. In future they can just use the magic words "I am a woman" and unless an offence can be proven we just have to put up with them being there.
katnis do you support the idea of unisex toilets (same set up as now but open to all) /changing rooms/hospital wards/rape crisis centres/prisons/DV refuges? If not, why not?

Please don't use "cis", Caryl. It's offensive, particularly to feminists.

There's a blog post on Gendertrender about transmen using women's facilities because they're much safer. I'm having problems putting links in posts because of my new phone, but maybe someone else could find it. Transmen + bathrooms should find it .

Given that I've heard people joking about transmen looking like Hobbits because of their shape, height and beards, I'd guess a small transman would find the gents pretty frightening.

FFS carolchurchill if you actually read what we've said, we're worried about MEN who will take advantage of the imminent self identifying policy. Men who look like men, even dress as men will be allowed in female bathrooms if they 'identify' as female and we won't be able to question them for fear of hate crime. So they'd be able to attack trans women as well as biological women.

The problem is with much of the pro trans argument is that it becomes all about the trans woman and how at risk she is. I don't know where your stats are from- I assume that's a global number as too high for U.K./us. If we're talking about women, one of the reasons so Many Indian Bihar women are raped and murdered is due to lack of toilets. They go off to do their business and get attacked. By men.

And there are examples of men and trans women using loos for attacks/voyeurism. We're saying that these things already happen, let's not make it worse by letting every person in without question. Stop ignoring the fact that actual biological women are vulnerable.

I think taking hormones stops their periods.

It isn't perfect but I think how things are now is best. Generally speaking, men use the men's and women use the women's, but it isn't illegal for a man to go into the women's and vice versa. So currently, if a transman who looked male went into the men's, nobody would question it. If a transwoman who looked female went into the women's nobody would question it. If a man, in a dress or not, came into the women's and acted suspiciously, I'd have the option of complaining or saying "this is the ladies".

As is the idea that the world is full of men just desperate to become trans (give up all their male privilege and put themselves at constant risk of attack and harassment) just purely so they can walk into a ladies loo when there's basically nothing stopping them from doing that anyway as a bloke.

You're missing the point. If self-declaration is the only requirement then any man could walk into any female-only space, for whatever reasons he chooses, and declare he identifies as a woman at that time. This is not just about toilets either.

www.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462/

Plenty of evidence of trans women harming women and girls in public toilets and elsewhere