Can I ask a question about toilets?

The OP is trying to do a gotcha! with transmen and her entirely innocent and not-agenda-driven-at-all questions. Tedious.

All that is possible is to take artificial cross-sex hormones to force your body to develop the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex (breasts, fat distributions, etc) and have surgery to approximate the appearance of the opposite sex. It is not possible to actually become the opposite sex.

Thank you for some clarity. It's stating the obvious but is in danger of being forgotten.

Where is the evidence that trans males are in danger of actual violence (misgendering doesnt count ffs) from other people (self harm doesnt count either!) in the UK at all?

"biological women who are presenting as men (aka transgender males)"

"Transgender male"?

Male and Female are sex, not gender.

One can be transgender ("feel like a woman", want to dress up as a woman etc), but not trans-sex. It is not possible to actually change one's sex. All that is possible is to take artificial cross-sex hormones to force your body to develop the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex (breasts, fat distributions, etc) and have surgery to approximate the appearance of the opposite sex. It is not possible to actually become the opposite sex.

In other words, a woman who wants to look like a man is not a "transgender male", or a male of any kind.

"Transwomen can't use men's loos because statistically the change they would be raped or attacked there is very very high."

"Very very high", you say. As in... 80%? 90%?

WHERE are all these hundreds and thousands of transwomen who are raped in the male toilets? I would like to see those statistics.

Yeah, and people have answered that lots of times
Trans men are still female. Even with short hair and men's boots they are still female. They are still easy to identify as female, so are welcome to use the female toilets. The fact that they 'present as men' (wear men's clothes and have short hair?) doesn't mean they are not female.
If they are not identifiable as female then they can use the men's and nobody will be any the wiser as long as they use a cubicle.

I absolutely believe this is nothing to do with safety and everything to do with getting validation from non consenting women.

Absolutely. And for some, deliberately trampling over women's boundaries is a way of expressing their clearly held by misogyny and contempt for us. The "safety" argument is total bullshit. What about our privacy and dignity? Men need to sort out their own issues.

YY DJbaggysmalls

Yet people frequently say that there is not 1 case of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom.
Which is true because transwomen rarely use male bathrooms if they think they are likely to be attacked

I've not ever come across a man in the women's bathrooms. I don't like that I'm meant to believe that men have been doing this for ages because they haven't. And no, the majority of them do NOT look like women.

The fact there's been no attacks show its perfectly safe.

There are transwomen who get attacked though

So what? They're not being attacked anywhere near the amount of women are. On average two women per WEEK are killed in the uk and many more seriously injured by men. I have zero interest in being concerned about men's safety in the men's toilets. It's a male issue , it's not for women to resolve and absolutely no reason to invade womens spaces.

I absolutely believe this is nothing to do with safety and everything to do with getting validation from non consenting women.

Self ID legislation is harmful because it means women cant challenge any male in the bathroom.

that gives power to male predators. They know they cannot be challenged. It empowers them.

Stop empowering male predators. We need to be able to challenge them based on their behaviour.
We dont challenge men who want to accompany their child, change a nappy, or have a pee. We dont need to. they are not a threat.

There is no need for any change in legislation.
Self identity legislation only empowers male predators.

NotCarylChurchill wrote - "trans murder rates are sky high (on average a trans person is murdered every three days)."

I don't know what area your statistic, which equates to about 122 murders per year, is for, but here are statistics for the worldwide annual average number of people who are murdered:

• transgender : 250 murdered per year (about 80% occurring in Latin America)
• not transgender : 500,000 murdered per year

It's True, there is no law about loos but if a man is in the females we can tell them to get the fuck out at present. Or they might get barred from certain places e.g. Pubs/ clubs. And yes, men will go in anyway if they want to rape- they have done that, but there are less chances if we have segregated loos- most of the time someone will notice a person who shouldn't be going into a certain place and know they are likely up to no good. I certainly wouldn't go into a ladies loo if I saw a man going in there before me.

Women in this country DO get attacked/raped in toilets. Let's not make this a more frequent occurrence by opening the doors to every Tom Dick and Harry. Mixed gender toilets are not safe for females.

ego what sort of toilet arrangements would keep you safe and also keep women safe?

Clue: it's not letting anybody who says they identify as a woman into women's toilets. You've said elsewhere you disagree with self-identification so I know you get this.

What's your solution?

Absolutely right, pencils

I agree Pencils.

It's all very well being idealistic about biology but trans men going into ladies loos would have constant problems from the other loo users who get stressed out by their presence and it would be completely impractical.

Like several of us have said, transmen can go in the gents if they 'pass'.

If transmen or men have a problem with that, it's up to them to sort out. Come up with practical solutions that don't shit all over women and I'll fight by your elbow. Expect women to sort out where every other group goes for a piss and you can fuck right off. I'm not your mum.

Women are allowed to set boundaries without having to sort out solutions for everyone else who is inconvenienced by us setting boundaries.

We've had an honour system that has worked for decades. What a shame the transactivists have trashed it.

This is genuinely not a goading or troll post, I am interested to hear what people have to say and how they feel about it

Based upon subsequent posts e.g. accusations of double standards and can't you see the irony here I think you do have an agenda and it was disingenuous to attempt to position your OP as 'mulling'

I think that it's usually clear what sex someone is and in the rare instance they genuinely pass as the opposite sex there would be no challenge if they used the facilities corresponding to their acquired gender identity. None of this makes any difference to the real issue of intact males imposing on the safety and privacy of women and girls however.

I agree, please don't use "cis"

It seems you're talking about some posters saying one thing and others, something else. So that's different opinions from different people. But I can't see a double standard anyway.

Already on this thread posters have said that transgender women rarely 'pass' but other posters have said they would assume it was a masculine looking woman. Do you not see the irony here?

What double standard do you mean here?

From the Gendertrender link on using male bathrooms:

As a transgender man, I am not supposed to admit this. I am supposed to proclaim that I finally “feel at home,” and that I will fight for my right to access them. And I will! But the truth is, I don’t feel safe in them—nor do I prefer them to women’s rooms.

She goes on to suggest that, like Santee High, women should sacrifice hard won female single-sex facilities and open them to men, so that women like her can continue to use them while identifying as male:

It's breathtaking how this bathroom shit utterley ignores women's boundaries, at every level.

A poster on another thread said that gender dysphoria has a strong correlation with narcissism.

No ego, there's no law. There never was a law. Until men started to demand one.