Can I ask a question about toilets?

Actually I wouldn't say "ignore them" my natural phrasing would probably be "Don't worry about it" even better.

Anyone who thinks creepy men won't take advantage of this is either stupid, or a man, IMO.

So I'm in the bogs with my 9yo DD and a man comes in. She says "mum there's a man in here". I now have to say "no dear don't say that it's rude it's probably a trans person just ignore them".

So I teach her that when men are in unexpected places where only women are supposed to be, she should pretend they aren't there and not make a fuss. Excellent.

The very fact that most TW do not comprehend why these changes make so many women and girls uncomfortable, shows up in neon lights that they did not have a "female" experience growing up.

And yes you always get one woman saying that nothing like this ever happened to her, but they are rare. I don't know any women who haven't had a creepy man do something - and it's usually when we're young 12-18 type age. Because we are more vulnerable then / less likely to report / know what to do etc.

dey everyone is different I suppose.

I think the thing is that the "unwritten rules" about socially accepted behaviour are being changed.

Before if a woman found a man in the bogs she had a few options, and he was less likely to be there as he had fuck all excuse.

The new plan is women aren't allowed to do anything until they get attacked, and any man who wants can wander in / loiter / follow a woman or girl in as the sort of invisible barrier has been lifted. Before, he had no excuse. Now, he just has to say "oh I'm trans" and on top of that being unchallengeable, the fact of questioning in the first place means that you are a bigot / evil / possibly committing a hate crime and so women will be strongly discouraged from asking / challenging. Plus the obvious problems when women challenge men ie verbal abuse / violence.

TW seem to think that the above scenarios are unlikely, the reason they think that, is because they did not grow up as girls and have lechy men coming on to them when they were in school uniform etc. They don't know what men are like - same as most men don't (and don't believe us when we tell them).

Yes agree many men and boys esp teen boys would be mortified having to undress / pee / whatever in front of women or girls.

Men pee in front of each other. From what I have seen, they are happy nakedly sharing a communal hot tub after football match.

Men are all different (surprise suprise), just like women.
Although, from school age, boys get used to peeing and being naked in changing rooms with other boys, most of the adult males I know recall with horror those days and would dread being naked in front of other men.
Maybe I only know shy types!
Pretty sure they wouldn't feel threatened though, just extreme discomfort.
Similarly if women (trans or trans men) were to go into their toilets.

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread, on other similar threads, people have said if they saw a man in their toilets, they would immediately panic, and wouldn't instantly know if it was a trans man or not. Yet here, people are saying they would know instantly.

I think that most men have NO IDEA about the level of perving, street harrassment, groping and all the rest of it we get when we're young.

And when we try to tell them, they don't believe us.

& yes some men are saying protect girls from predators but not the ones who see themselves as liberal and lovely, they just want to shut women up who complain.

I imagine plenty of men don't give a fuck either way as it impacts on them not at all.

Why is the responsibility for everything on girls and women?

Men feel scared in the gents? The women should have them in with them.
Men get beaten up in prison? The women should have them in with them.
Men perve over schoolgirls in the shopping centre toilets? The girls need to do something about it

& etc and so on

How about MEN take responsibility for some of this stuff for gods sake. Why aren't men telling each other off when they step out of line? Why aren't men campaigning about violence in prisons? Why aren't men saying that 12 year old girls should be protected from predators? Why is it always on US?

"Being pervy" is not illegal.

Not all women and girls have the wherewithall to tell men to fuck off.

When I have told men to fuck off (and even when I have politely asked them to go away) I have sometimes been verbally abused / threatened, not all women and girls are prepared to take that risk.

The idea that girls and vulnerable women should have to stand up to adult men who are up to no good, that responsibility is on the girls and women to "do something about it" is all arse about face. It's an unfair call. And it also leads to the "why didn't she do something" when something really bad happens.

There are also a lot of people who for whatever reason wouldn't tell someone off.

I got groped while sat in a theatre when I was a teenager. I should have shouted for him to stop, but I was so shocked I froze. The same happened to me when I was sexually assaulted at a university party. I wasn't even a timid person. I'd jump right in for someone else, but it was so unexpected I didn't know what to do. Now I would tell the man to fuck off, but the last time I did that on public transport everyone looked away like I was making a scene.

Men, women regardless of what sex they identify with, if they are acting Pervy it's wrong and I'd tell them to eff off, I don't really understand tbh why there's such a thing about this.

It's the definition of the word 'pervy'.

If someone is obviously leering that will be construed as pervy. But a lot of pervy behaviour can go on with no discernible change in the person's behaviour.

Men, women regardless of what sex they identify with, if they are acting Pervy it's wrong and I'd tell them to eff off, I don't really understand tbh why there's such a thing about this.

I think a lot of men wouldn't want to undress in front of a woman. Most men I know have said they don't like going to a busy loo where they have to be next to another man at the urinal. Yes, it's just discomfort and not fear of attack, but I think it's a widely experienced feeling to want to not share some things with the opposite sex. Whether that's daft or not, it's deeply ingrained so I think most people would feel uncomfortable changing in a unisex situation.

The word boundaries is very important. It's something that women, most women, instinctively have.

Men pee in front of each other. From what I have seen, they are happy nakedly sharing a communal hot tub after football match.

And yes, I know they don't all peer at each other's groin, or get handsy. But the vulnerability element just isn't as high for them.

Even the best of men don't realise how important boundaries are to women. They think it's all just based on the realistic chances of rape or attack. It's not. It's an ingrained vulnerability that is constantly present, even behind a curtain in a female changing room. My antenna will automatically turn up a slight notch if I am trying on a swimsuit say, rather than a pair of jeans.

It's always there, but it ratchets up depending on circumstance.

I'm not saying man can't feel vulnerable, they can. But I think for them, it is a reaction to something. Whereas for women it is constant, it's just the degree that changes.

My teenage son pointed out the other day that if a woman went into the men's changing room and started stripping off, the blokes would feel awkward and embarrassed, but they wouldn't feel physically threatened.

Whereas if a bloke goes into the Ladies changing and starts getting his kit off, the dynamics are very different. Under those circs it's perfectly reasonable for women to feel threatened, because the bloke is clearly already not bothered about boundaries, so might well carry on to other, more overtly physical violations.

Blokes in a changing room with a woman aren't going to feel physically threatened, whereas women with a bloke in their changing room probably will, with good reason.

I went to a big concert with my dad recently. The crowd was mainly female and the toilets ratio at the arena wasn't set up for this so women just used either as they pleased. My dad obviously didn't feel in danger, but was a bit uncomfortable with a bunch of women in there. And that's fair enough isn't it? I've often looked at the lack of a queue for the gents and thought about nipping in, but didn't want to make the men feel uncomfortable. I wasn't afraid of coming to harm in there, I just didn't want to make them feel like their privacy was being invaded in their sex segregated space.

But when women say that in general they are wary of men, they get told NAMALT and it's not fair and don't make sweeping judgements and each and every one should get a fair chance to prove they are not horrible rapists.

So women are being told this about anyone coming into their spaces, when they compain.

But when TW and their supporters say that OBVIOUSLY they need to come in with the women because it's so dangerous with the men, everyone agrees.

Why is this?

Is it because women's statements about their life experiences and their fears are seen as hysterical, over-reaction, the work of fevered imaginations and lies?

While when people who everyone knows are men say they are fearful, this is recognised as truth and accommodations must be made?

Is it because it's considered part of women's job - their place - a thing that they simply have to put up with, putting up with all sorts of creepy and awful behaviour from men, and victim blamed when it is really bad?

While for a man to get this from another man is seen as definitely wrong?

Link the other day with a teen "transgirl" going in the boys toilets and getting beaten up by some adult men who were for some reason hanging out in the school toilets, this was presented as being the fault of teenage girls. So, girls HAVE to accept males in their spaces, and if they don't and something happens, as per usual it is NOT the fault of the men who do the actual violence, but the fault of women because women are just awful and need to be blamed for everything.

It's all very boring.

Bogs thing. TW who pass have used them for years with no probs. TW who didn't pass got put up with if they were trying to look female and minding their own business (IME). Maybe a few funny looks. MEN who were in the ladies got short shrift and you could challenge them, tell the bouncer / shop / whatever. In clubs you could hide from persistent men, get away from them and send someone out to have a look for you to check they'd gone.

The idea now is you can't do anything until they commit an actual crime. Great! Creepy men have a host of things in their armoury that are intimidating / scary / weird / unsettling / pervy but not actually illegal. And now there's no escape! They can just follow you in.

None of the transactivist logic stands up to any scrutiny. People are just gullible, thoughtless virtue signallers. I despair.

I'm really sick of men coming on here telling us how dangerous the male toilets are, how men are aggressive and will rape anyone given the chance. Yet we know our male relatives and sons use the men's bathrooms without being raped or attacked.

You know, I think it is the male toilets that beat up and rape males. I mean, when males want access to the women's toilets, we are told they are harmless little angels, every one of them.

So clearly, the pissoirs are sentient and turn into humanoid creatures when the moon is full and the wolfsbane blooms, and beat up and rape gender-non-conforming men. But like many supernatural monsters, they cannot ever leave the men's loo.

That is the only explanation that makes sense of those two claims that men in the men's loo are dangerous but men in the women's loo are harmless.
It must be the men's toilets that are the monsters!

QuentinSummers

I saw the title, but couldn't be arsed to watch the video. It's no surprise, to be honest.

That video .Did you see the other video he made saying he's been diagnosed with schizophrenia? Very strange.

Datun - they are multi-tasking because it's what women do, obv

Only made it half-way through the video...

So he's fine with his body, he didn't realise he had a gender identity until recently (so he didn't grow up trans), and he's decided that it's 'woman' because previously he didn't realise gender exists, but now he does. Oh, and he's too sensitive to be mis-gendered, despite beard and dressing in an entirely masculine gender-conforming manner

Right. Well..

Not much to say there. Crack on, I think that exactly what's needed to bring this out in the open as the woman bullying nonsense it is.

Ironic that he keeps saying 'she wants attention! She wants attention'. Pot. Kettle.

Yes, that wasn't lost on me! Projection much?

One of the reasons I like Magdelen Berns' videos so much is because she just bloody gets on with it and starts talking.

As soon as someone starts to naval gaze, look at something off camera, raises eyebrows and sighs, or talks to 'fascinating' pets/people you can't see, my patience instantly disappears.

Even those who are quite speechless with outrage and splutter, get on my nerves.

You're making a bloody video, get a script in front of you for God's sake.