Ben Shapiro

I don't understand the anti-abortion case in the slightest (I refuse to call it "pro-life" as they have no concern about the lives of women whose choices over their own bodies they seek to remove). They simply seek to exert control over women's bodies and dictate what women can do.

If that is directed at me shiny, I didn't actually say that. I have no issue with access whatsoever. I am pro choice as I said upthread. But there are logical and ethical issues re 'viability' such that I understand the pro-life ethical case. Not their tactics, of course.

Again, and I repeat, the final choice MUST be the woman's.

We should not be expected to promote it either

What do you mean by "promote" it? I've never seen anyone do so, unless you mean simply making sure it's a choice which is available and women know this.

If you perpetuate myths like "Easier access to abortion means more abortions", you are fostering a misogynistic culture in which women are denied choice.

Exactly. The main places I've heard that argument before are from anti-abortion protesters, both in person and online. When it's suggested this is at all commonplace or an attitude lots of women have they'd feel all the more justified in perpetuating this myth.

Noone here is saying that women should ever be denied a choice

If you perpetuate myths like "Easier access to abortion means more abortions", you are fostering a misogynistic culture in which women are denied choice.

Abortion isn't a choice comparable to choosing a Big Mac over a Chicken burger fgs. It is not something 'good'. It is simply sometimes necessary or inevitable.

But support the autonomy of other women to make their own decision about their own body

• NOONE has said anything otherwise. We should not be expected to promote it either; there are significant ethical issues at play.

Sorry, I articulated that appallingly with one of the sentences barely even making sense (rather embarrassing).

I am mystified why anyone - let alone a feminist - would see abortion as anything other than a personal choice. Don't approve of abortion? Fine, don't have one. But support the autonomy of other women to make their own decision about their own body.

Exactly. I'm still surprised some are using the "some people use abortion in place of contraception so we should acknowledge it happens" line on the subject of abortion rights. I would hope people here would rightly be appalled if someone said that about, for example, false allegations of sexual assault etc (using that example as it's always issues which affect primarily women where this kind of thing is done, use a tiny minority to attack women's rights/campaigners) said "some people do it so we should acknowledge that". It's derailing in both cases in my opinion.

The morning after pill is also not without side effects for some I've been told, though this is a slightly (but not altogether) separate issue.

Shiny
Noone here is saying that women should ever be denied a choice.

But then the flip side of that is that unprotected sex feels less risky, because of the availability of abortion. Hence - more abortions

There is absolutely no evidence of that. In fact, quite the opposite: societies with good access to abortion also tend to have low rates of unplanned pregnancies. (There are a few anomalies like Russia but these are due to women there being denied access to contraception, not because women are choosing to use abortion instead of contraception).

I am mystified why anyone - let alone a feminist - would see abortion as anything other than a personal choice. Don't approve of abortion? Fine, don't have one. But support the autonomy of other women to make their own decision about their own body.

Who is jumping into bed with him exactly? Just because someone doesn't agree with him about some things doesn't mean they can't on other issues. You never know, perhaps even you and some of the feminists on this board might agree on some things!

I personally consider my views on a case by case basis, not a tick box of the current 'progressive' ideology.

Thanks oneflew as I said, I'm still learning about circumstances and arguments.

I had assumed none of this is cut and dried. So that is very useful.

Oh and I waited about 4 weeks after taking the morning after pill before realising that it hadn't worked when my (very irregular) period failed to show up. I then had to wait another 2 or 3 weeks before actually being able to get a medical abortion.

I imagine many women who get later abortions than that are on a form of contraception that they expect to be working that doesn't give periods and only realise later when they begin to experience pregnancy symptoms.

I had to have an abortion despite using a condom (which broke) and then taking the morning after pill - although due to limited public transport and Sunday opening hours I didn't get hold of it until about 3pm having had the condom break the previous night.

The fact is that the morning after pill is only 89% effective and most contraception is far from 100% effective in real life usage. Condoms not only break but are applied after some sexual contact which drops effectiveness down less than 90%, contraceptive pills aren't taken at the exact same time each day and can be impacted by stomach upsets. Even permanent contraception such as the implant or the copper coil cannot be considered 100% effective because there are still women who get pregnant despite this.

So considering the many flaws of contraception, I'd say that the 16 abortions for every 1,000 women in 2015 does not suggest we've got a cavalier response to abortion.

I don't have a political viewpoint on abortion. My viewpoint is as woman and a mother. If I politicised my viewpoint, I would come down on the side of pro-choice. Of course.

But if I am agreeing to pro-choice, at the very least I would like to see fewer abortions. If that doesn't sit well with having to come down hard on one side or the other, I can't help that.

I'm not saying that lots of people deliberately use abortion as a means of after-the-fact contraception. Why would you? It is very definitely traumatic.

I'm saying that because you can often have unprotected sex and not conceive, the perceived risk is mentally minimised the next time.

In a nutshell - yes to pro choice, but at the same time push contraception hard. There's no excuse not to use it (in the normal course of events).

If abortions correlated to failed contraception, you wouldn't get the demographics you do.

I honestly thought the morning after pill would revolutionise women's choices. Everyone can make a mistake, get carried away, have a condom break, etc. But why wait until 1, 2, 3 missed periods before you start wondering if you're pregnant? When unprotected sex is what will determine pregnancy.

To me, this seems a very practical issue. Or have I missed something? Is there a stigma attached to the morning after pill or is it something you have to jump through hoops to get hold of?

I agree and I certainly know some who have had several abortions and not appeared to have given it a second thought. I also know a couple of people who still suffer from it.

I also have used contraception correctly and had no accidents and have become pregnant when not using and trying to conceive. I am pro choice, and while I also struggle with the ethics of it in terms of 'viability' (an atrocious term), I firmly believe the decision ultimately has to be the woman's.

I'm sorry to hear that Oleanna

I agree that you cannot just deny such people exist- they are not a reason for curtailing abortion for every one else.

So far as Ben Shapiro, on transgender issues nothing he says would be out of place coming from Magdalen Berns.

Amy My point is that we can't deny such people exist, even if we - correctly, IMO - then argue that they are not a reason to curtail access to legal abortion for everyone else.

Lass I've had late periods and I've had early miscarriages. They are very different things, sadly

I really don't understand why a handful of people using abortion as contraception is even relevant to the abortion debate (not that I feel there should even be any debate on it). I always thought it was the kind of argument which was used by anti-abortion activists to try to undermine abortion rights, suggesting women routinely use it in such a manner. A small minority of people use all sorts of rights in ways which they shouldn't. It's a vital right and so important for women to be able to access. To bring up a small number who use it in the way described is, in my opinion, an attack on that right in itself, even if it's not intended to be - it feeds into the rhetoric anti-choice people use.

Whilst it's impossible for only women to legislate on abortion given the political system (only certain kinds of people being able to legislate on certain issues would be a dangerous route to go down, not least in terms of sex), I am very uneasy at the idea of men dictating to women on the subject. It's also why I'd not entertain any kind of relationship with a man who was anti-abortion, nor attach any value to their views, as I'd see them as quite misogynistic.

But I bet you are thinking of that recent picture from the US and cringing - I know I am

Yup. Can't get it out of my head.

I agree that using abortion as contraception isn't commonplace, but I suspect most of know someone (even if it's a friend of a friend of a friend type person) who has done so.

I completely agree that women should be front and centre in legislating on abortion / women's reproductive health , but I don't agree that only women should legislate on these issues, in the same way that it shouldn't only be disabled representatives who get to legislate on issue regarding disability. But I bet you are thinking of that recent picture from the US and cringing - I know I am

I still would highly doubt it's a commonplace attitude. I have spoken to and heard from some women who've had abortions and they didn't go into them from that point nor spoke of having it as being an easy process or one they thought nothing of. As I said, there may always be some who do use it like that (I won't say "abuse" it as I believe abortion services should be there for all women who want or need to have them) but that's not, to me, any argument against abortion rights. I do also personally feel it's slightly a derailing issue given how vital abortion rights are for women, and in my opinion intrinsic to women's rights generally.

amy

I hear what you're saying. And I would like to agree unequivocally. But I am reminded of a girlfriend of mine who used abortion as means of 'ultimate contraception'. She didn't use protection and had 5-6 abortions as a result.

I cannot imagine why. Contraception is a piece of piss compared to abortion. She was an intelligent women. All I can think is that somehow 'sex' and 'pregnancy' to some people don't seem to be the fairly sure fire cause and effect that they are.

Minutes after the first time I had unprotected sex with DH (trying to conceive), I said, hey I could be pregnant now!' He said 'yeah right'.

I was. His disconnect was surprising to say the least.

I suppose there will always be a minority who use abortions in that way, but I still doubt it's a commonplace attitude. Those I've heard of who've had abortions don't speak about it like that at all nor see it as an alternative to contraception.