Ben Shapiro

How fucking dare you? You have NO right to determine my ethical stance. Is this supposed to be liberal thinking?

I was making a rhetorical admonition, not "determining your ethical stance" (how would that even work?). If you can't tell the difference between the two, this is not going to be a productive discussion. Enjoy the warm glow of your outrage though.

I am now in a very good place after battling with a lot of bad thoughts and am happy to talk about it in a positive light, it is not something to be ashamed of and should most definitely have more awareness.

From an abortion rights website.

Also the idea there are "ethical arguments" against abortion could potentially shame women who access the services and make them feel they've done something wrong (which the protesters already do). It's difficult enough without people telling them what they're doing is not "good" or has "ethical issues".

I don't think we should be worrying about reducing the number of abortions tbh. The number (16 per 1000 "fertile" women) is so low as to be below the failure rate of condoms with perfect use.

Clearly women are taking contraception seriously to achieve this and those who require an abortion are probably, like me, those who have had a form of contraceptive failure and of course the truly awful scenarios of women who have to end a wanted pregnancy because of health issues.

To say that we ought to reduce below this point is implying that we, as women, are not already doing our best collectively to be responsible for our contraception. It is treating us as children who cannot be trusted to make serious and sensible decisions about our own bodies.

I wasn't saying no one else was allowed to see ethical issues btw. I'm not thought police!

I just stated that I do not see any beyond the woman's consent. This idea that pro-choice means having to live with an element of unease / ethical dilemma just isn't true in my case.

Shiny
"If you are pro-Choice, have the guts to be fully pro-Choice"

How fucking dare you? You have NO right to determine my ethical stance. Is this supposed to be liberal thinking?

I concur fully, shiny. As I said a couple of times earlier in the thread, some of these supposed arguments against echo exactly what I've heard from anti-abortion people. It really does play into their hands when they hear people aside from themselves say "but it is terrible" etc, especially at a time when the Health Secretary himself is in favour of lowering the time limit for abortion and "pro-life" as they call themselves groups are having their "counselling services" promoted by the government as I understand it.

No it doesn't feed into anti abortion rhetoric. Noone should be allowed to determine someone else's ethical position just as the same as a woman should not be forced to have a baby she does not want. Ultimately, IMO, the woman's rights beat the ethics in this situation as anything else is barbaric.

I am struggling with being told I cannot want to reduce the number of abortions whilst at the same time being pro-choice

No one has said that, Datun. What I am disputing is your point upthread that easier access to abortion = more abortion. That is just plain wrong and straight from the Pro-Life, anti-woman playbook.

Mercy ah, I dunno really. I would say at birth, generally, although I know that is open to challenge. But I think it's clearer that there is independent life at birth than at any earlier stage.

I think I remember parasites being discussed at uni and one of the arguments put forward was that a parasitic organism can survive in any individual of a host species, so has a degree of independence, thus alive. A foetus can only live in its specific host, so is more comparable to a cluster of cells, like an organ, thus not alive. But it was quite a long time ago now. I was just trying to make the point that I'm aware of the different arguments - I wasn't placing myself as grand arbiter of the potentially endless debate!

Datun how would you reduce the number of abortions if you are pro-choice and your issues are with abortion itself?

Totally agree IAmAmy. For the individual woman, abortion is usually distressing - after 20 years as a doctor, I am still waiting to meet a woman who does not take abortion seriously.

But, for women as a whole, abortion is incredibly important. Our right to bodily autonomy should be celebrated. It is really dangerous for those who support that right to indulge in squeamish hand-wringing about how terrible it is that we need abortion: that plays right into the hands of the Anti-Choice ("Pro-Life") lobby.

Abortion is not a necessary evil: it is a necessary (though difficult) good. Not only does it protect women, it protects children: all societies without access to legal abortion have much higher rates of infanticide and of late illegal abortion. Everyone hand-wringing about aborting a foetus the size of a kidney bean (the human embryo at 8 weeks) should remember that the alternative is a lot of dead term or near-term babies and a lot of dead women.

If you are pro-Choice, have the guts to be fully pro-Choice.

I'm just surprised to find feminists who have issues with abortion. As I said, it's one issue where even non-feminists I know agree. It's a woman's body and therefore should only be her choice what to do with it. I can't see how other people pontificating about ethical issues when it's her who has to carry the pregnancy inside her with her life being affected is relevant.

I am struggling with being told I cannot want to reduce the number of abortions whilst at the same time being pro-choice.

If some of my concerns are also mentioned by people who are not pro choice, I can't help that. I'm not one of those people.

I fully, 100% support a woman's right to autonomy over her own body.

Wanting to reduce abortions, is not the opposite of that.

OK, so are you saying that noone should be allowed to think there are ethical issues, given that they also ultimately support the right of the women to make her decision and have full access and support to abortion?

It does affect me as the kind of argument being put forward feeds into anti-abortion rhetoric.

Speaking for myself, I doubt I'll ever wish to have children (though I know that could well change in future, who knows how I'll feel in 15, 20 etc years' time). I'll take precautions to try to ensure I don't fall pregnant in future but should they fail, it's vital I have the right and ability to access abortion services.

Ok great then Amy. The conversation above was about the ethical issues. If you don't believe thare are any, then fine, it doesn't affect you

I agree, Batteriesallgone.

Batteries
So when is it life then?

The only ethical issue I see with abortion is where a woman is forced into one against her will.

As long as there is full, informed, capable consent I see no ethical issues.

Really? You see no ethical issues with abortion?

No.

Really? You see no ethical issues with abortion?

I don't agree with the arguement that logically life begins at conception. Don't follow that at all.

It's a long time since I studied biology at university, but we had many philosophical debates about 'what is life' and how is it defined.

Has this now been resolved and I was unaware?

Once you drill down into it life is such a tricky concept. Is autonomy life? Intelligence? Possessing genes? What about viruses and RNA? Is that life? Is a parasitic organism alive in any meaningful sense of the word?

I don't think you can claim that logically life begins at conception and I don't agree with that viewpoint at all personally. Not just from a practical pro-abortion stance, from a philosophical one too.

That doesn't really follow to me. How can there be nothing "good" about something which gives women choice and potentially helps women's lives so much?

RTFT Amy and don't pick up on one word out of context. You know full well what I meant. I am pro choice. Fully. But I am not pro-abortion. There is nothing 'good' about abortion.