Ben Shapiro

I have also looked after a friend who had an abortion.

This thread has upset me quite a bit with the suggestion that to have ethical concerns about abortion is somehow wrong. I even hid this thread for a while, which is something I never done before.

Let me be clear, I haven't been lecturing people about abortion or trying to 'convert' them or judge them. Nor would I. But I am allowed to have judge ethical issues for myself. And in an environment like this I don't think it's reasonable to have it suggested that I just STFU and implied that I am not feminist enough or lack the courage of my convictions

The point is Amy , no one on here is not pro-choice albeit Oleanna has expressed resistance to late term abortion.

You seem however to be asking those of us who have personal reservations about abortion to put those views aside. Not just not to mention them (and be quite clear , everyone has said in an open, non anonymous public debate they would be pro choice without qualification) but even to stop thinking those views.

The point is exactly as you say, we are pro choice , regardless of our other personal feelings, and that is the key issue.

It does rather feel that you are lecturing women who in all likelihood have been actively supporting abortion rights for many years. I might not have been on demos but I've signed petitions, been a member of Amnesty, made donations and looked after a friend after an abortion.

everyone here is pro-choice regardless of their other feelings so I suppose that's the key issue.
Yes it is. People's views on abortion for themselves are personal things. It's the ability for society as a whole to be pro choice for women who need abortion (for whatever reason) that's the most important thing I think

it's difficult because it's a choice that can only be made on personal circumstances and lots of women will have strong opinions based on their own personal experiences

Well quite, but it's exactly because it's a choice which can only be made depending on personal circumstances that anyone else's strong opinion based on their own personal circumstances isn't necessarily relevant to another woman's - hence why being pro-choice is vital. Anyway I'm getting the feeling I'm in a bit of a minority on this for whatever reason and everyone here is pro-choice regardless of their other feelings so I suppose that's the key issue.

Yes I know I did. I'm just saying it's very hard to disentangle a woman's personal experience from the principle of being pro-choice.
Like Sally Philips' recent documentary about Downs syndrome. I can see a mother of a DS child with all the joy that brings could struggle with the idea of DS being manufactured out of society through early screening and termination.
I'm firmly pro choice, I just think it's difficult because it's a choice that can only be made on personal circumstances and lots of women will have strong opinions based on their own personal experiences

I myself FFS my articulacy on here has been appalling recently.

Quentin I appreciate I have no idea what it's like to have been pregnant. I found out in discussions on abortion with my mother that myself was an unplanned pregnancy (my parents were happily settled together with their own home but still, at that point, hadn't planned children yet) but she's entirely of the same mindset as me on the subject. I understand that going through the experiences you mention can alter someone's views on abortion but I still don't think that outweighs how important abortion rights are for women. I'm struggling to articulate this without saying something wrong but I really don't think it's fair to compare an abortion to children who were actually born and have developed into who they are. You made the right choice, so did anyone you know who had an abortion.

amy it's admirable you have such strong views on abortion but please do bear in mind that going through pregnancy/premature birth can alter those considerably (for the woman involved)
I have cold sweats some days that my unplanned DC (and probably also my subsequent child born 2 years later) might not be in the world if I'd made a different choice, because they are both amazing. And I often wonder what an aborted baby of someone close to me would have grown up like, seeing how amazing her children are. It's very hard to disentangle personal/political about this.

I think the conclusion I will eventually come to is that one's political viewpoint and one's personal viewpoint on this particular issue can vary

I think that sums it up precisely.

I don't agree that there are no ethical questions simply because not everyone thinks there are. There are many activities in all aspects of life where one party cannot see an ethical issue which is blindingly obvious to another.

QuentinSummers

Yes thanks for that. Thanks for the '...who benefits from' scenarios.

That's the backwards way of looking at it that does deconstruct a fallacious argument. Always a useful marker.

Quentin absolutely. They all feed into the same kind of culture, one which attacks and blames women whilst seeking to control them, in my opinion.

Olennas we are, but ethical issues with it are personal and, as you also said, no reason to limit abortion rights. The priority must be defending abortion rights, opposing those who seek to limit them (a real danger not only in America but also here today) and supporting women who are in a position to need them. It doesn't "raise ethical questions" because that suggests it does to everyone - it in some peoples' minds does. As you also believe the rights themselves are vital and it's appalling even part of the UK still controls women in preventing them from accessing them.

I think the conclusion I will eventually come to is that one's political viewpoint and one's personal viewpoint on this particular issue can vary.
Yes - that's my conclusion too. With a healthy dose of "who benefits from a narrative that pregnancy is preventable? Or a narrative that women have abortions (especially late term ones) on a whim?" Those narratives are similar to many others in patriarchal society (that women cry rape, that women lie to prevent father's seeing children after divorce, that women choose to give up work, that women have babies to get benefits, that women have babies to trap men, yadda yadda yadda

QuentinSummers

Funnily enough, I found myself in an identical situation to you. Worried I may be pregnant at a point in my life where it would have been ruinous. And yes it did focus my mind. Fortunately it was a false alarm.

I think the conclusion I will eventually come to is that one's political viewpoint and one's personal viewpoint on this particular issue can vary. (But not in terms of achieving rights).

I will still ponder it, though. It's made me think - would I have supported women's suffrage? Yes absolutely. Would I have thrown myself under a horse? No.

to namechanged

Amy - there is a reason that abortion is one of the few issues that is subject to a free vote in Parliament. I think we are going to agree to disagree whether abortion raises any ethical issues, or if it's as straightforward as having a tooth removed. But there is a big difference between something that raises ethical questions (the way I and a few others here have termed it), and something that is "ethically questionable" (your phrasing).

datun for myself I am with you, I don't think I could have an abortion and in fact when I fell unexpectedly pregnant in less than idea circs I didn't.
However if I was to get accidentally PG today, in my 40s with 3 school age children my decision would be a lot harder than when I was in my 20s with no children. I can't think of anything worse than being pg at the moment, so maybe I would make a different choice.
I don't think my personal views on when life starts and whether I would have an abortion is relevant at all to the wider debate. I'm probably choice always, the circumstances surrounding another woman's choice are none of my business

It would seem some of you would prefer lies. I am pro choice, I do not want to see any tightening up of abortion law in the UK and would like N. Ireland to be the same as the rest of the UK.

A woman should have the right to choose an abortion if she wishes. Beyond this thread I would make no comment and it's none of my business but I am still of the view it is a less worse option.

I don't think it is a contradiction to be vehemently pro-choice and also to campaign for good sex education, and contraception options and access. As someone wrote up thread, the intention is to prevent unwanted pregnancies - which covers terminations and those who go on to carry the pregnancy to term, who might not be better off for it.

Actually I shouldn't have said "I imagine the vast majority...would agree" as I can't know that and that may suggest there's something wrong with abortions, there absolutely isn't and I would definitely do so myself were I ever to be in that position. Just meant there's also nothing wrong with feeling you'd rather not have got pregnant without wanting to be in the first place either.

Datun I can't see anything wrong with your position there (not that I'm the arbiter obviously). You are entirely pro-choice and supportive of abortion rights, believe all women should have the right to choose whilst thinking preventing an unwanted pregnancy in the first place would be preferable. I imagine the vast majority of women who access abortion services would agree. My only issue with that is the word "option" as sometimes it's not a choice between one or the other. Either way abortion rights are so vital to women and girls, which is something I think most are agreed on here.

namechangednaturally

I'm sorry you were in the position where you were unable to confide.

I am vehemently pro-choice and I would support you unequivocally. Indeed I have done just that with a young woman.

I am unwavingly, fully convicted, not-up-for-question profoundly in support of a woman's right to full body autonomy.

That was never my issue.

Perhaps I can't hold that opinion whilst at the same time wanting a 'prevention is better than cure opinion'. I thought I could, but in terms of the politically polarising of opinion around abortion, it seems my opinion has a detrimental effect on pro choice rights. Which is rather horrifying tbh.

It's very unusual for me to hold an opinion that I can't fully justify.

So I'm not going to do it for now. I will let what everyone has said percolate and give it some head space.

avoiding an unwanted pregnancy all my life

This thread suggests that there are people who are pro-choice - thank goodness everyone has the right to an abortion; women’s autonomy over their bodies is the most important element - and people who are pro-choice - having an abortion can sometimes be the least bad option, they should be legal but what about the babies….

This is the reason abortion is not spoken about openly. Caitlin Moran was bold to speak out about hers and say she has no regrets because the expectation is that women should feel torn about making the decision and that comes from the anti-abortion groups and pro-choice groups. I found myself in the same situation in my mid-thirties and having a termination of pregnancy is a secret that DH and I will take to the grave. The only dithering and deliberation I did was due to the humiliation and shame of finding myself in that position having being smugly competent in avoiding pregnancy all my life up to that point. I felt that way because I knew I was supposed to act that way. Having an abortion is not something I would ever admit to even in a room full of women who were pro-choice because I would still feel judged and as though I had to justify my reasons for needing/wanting the termination.

For those who consider themselves pro-choice but also express misgivings about when life begins or how many abortions are too many, or in what circumstances they are socially acceptable - this viewpoint has consequences. It ought not to be unexpected that other posters bring some ethical analysis to the thread. It is valuable for people to examine why they hold their viewpoints and to see if some of their beliefs are held up by false facts or prejudices or lack of logic. e.g. those who think life begins at conception – are you also opposed to the types of contraception that could prevent implantation of an embryo.

Also many women of course don't feel guilty or bad about having an abortion, rightly not as they have nothing to feel bad about. It's a vital right and gives women much needed control over our bodies. It's not a "necessary evil" but hugely important to women's rights and independence, something there should be no stigma nor embarrassment around. I will go to oppose the ghastly protesters outside my nearest clinic again this weekend who seek to intimidate and harass users constantly.

Bollocks to that

Okay, you keep on with your "ethical issues" and ignore the countless stories from women who've needed abortions for all sorts of reasons. If you have ethical issues with abortion just don't have one. Many women find it difficult to talk about their abortions or shake off a feeling of guilt (see a quote I posted earlier), if they were to read comments about how what they were doing is perceived to be "ethically questionable" not least from feminists I doubt that'd help much.