Hadley Freeman: Identity is the issue of our age: so why can’t we talk more honestly about trans women?

Yes flo. There was really no need for her to use words like that. I've gone right off Hadley lately.

Really mixed feelings. I'm a big fan of Hadley Freeman and I applaud her for putting her head over the parapet but I'm so disappointed in the 'maybe they are' (bigoted ol' bitches) comment.

There's a big difference between pulling your punches and sticking the boot in. If Freeman felt the need to distance herself from Germaine Greer she could have done so, as Jenni Murray did. There was no need for the odious, ageist 'cool girl' wink.

I'm also disappointed in the way it's being shrugged off - as if 'a little light ageism' is seen as a price worth paying.

Totally agree that this is brave, and it's sad that that's the case, with something so gentle.

I also think that a lot of people, and she might be one, were very 'of COURSE we should support all trans rights' when the issue first started coming up, and it's only now that certain aspects of the trans activist agenda are more well known that there's some re-thinking going on. I mean, it's all moved pretty fast, I remember when Greer was talking it was 'how dare you say trans women are men' - whereas now I actually can't imagine a prominent woman saying that. Now you're on thin ice if you say that trans women weren't always women, pre transition. I think a lot of people are hitting a bit of a tipping point.

I'm new to a lot of this.

In a nutshell:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sarahditum.com/2014/08/12/no-platforming-and-newsnight/amp/

Women like Hadley simply cannot speak out so this was a sanitised version of her opinion (I am guessing).
If more of us do it then things will improve but this will take a long time.
If mumsnet, the guardian and politicians cannot clearly address the issues I don't see how the rest of us will manage.
Miranda yardley is a loss to the discussion.

I'd love to know Alice Roberts view. In a Horizon programme she was overwhelmingly for the side that gender is a social construct, with the science to back it. Michael Moseley on the other, that it was evident in brains, which Alice argued was developed through socialisation, and demonstrated how this works.

Though there was no final conclusion. Could do with watching it again actually. I think Simon Baron Cohen needs to re-label his research into systemiser and empathetic brains rather than gender linked. It's been striking me that Temple Grandin would / could have been labelled a trans man under the current climate. She has autism.

It's awful that someone gets abuse for questioning something and raising concerns. If that happens, people become nervous and reluctant to enter a debate.

It's a difficult debate with lots of complex issues and possible solutions to them. It's a debate that needs to be had and different voices with different experiences need to be heard - from all viewpoints. Not sides but viewpoints. Otherwise people from different viewpoints to yours don't get heard and you start to live in an echo chamber.

Caroline Criado Perez has spoken in her favour on Twitter. I don't know if she was already known as gender critical/questioning?

And Paris Lees is not the person to respond as she is very fixed on her views and is very likely not to help any trans cause.

Nor I suspect is Jane Fae.

It would be interesting to see if there were any other points of views expressed on trans people by people who have a powerful platform in the media just so different perspectives could be considered and discussed.

Discussion is vital. Discussion takes different people and people with many viewpoints. It sometimes feels that viewpoints are fixed in their view and are absolute in their views.

Maybe a trans person who is not so fixed on their views and adament they are a woman should be offered a platform to discuss the issues from their perspective. Platforms can be powerful and it's hard to get different views out if you haven't got a platform.

Bet Hadley's on MN, hi Hadley.

Thought it was a good article, but not hugely controversial - JM's went further and was much more opinionated. It's sad to see even something like this receiving a backlash.

I too am sure that HF's views on the topic go deeper than this, but this is as far as she could go as a starting point. She has seen the vitriol and abuse thrown at JM and CNA so she clearly knew the same would be coming for her too. Yes there are a couple of problematic moments in the article, but she made her point well. This is heartening.

Disappointed overall with Hadley, she's very happy to throw intellectual giants like Greer overboard, ooh, I'm not like that mad old bigot. Well you know what, I am, and am only about 3 years older than Hadley so fuck off with your disingenuous ageism. Glad to see the overall trend thiugh

Very good point ebearhug.

I've come to the conclusion that Twitter is called Twitter because it is for Twits.

To me he just likes manicures (man-icures!) and started his statement by saying long nails on a man would have been in the past used as a weapon to catch prey.

He's talking bollocks and needs to do a day's gardening, which would make him realise that anyone in a society where nearly everyone is involved in some sort of manual labour would be very unlikely to have long nails.

I went right off Eddie Izzard when he announced that his girl genes were responsible for him being into heels. Bellend.

I work in the public sector. My organisation is energetically pursuing an equality and diversity agenda which is brilliant fur the workforce and I wholeheartedly support that. But a more nuanced discussion is out of the question at the moment. And colleagues follow me on social media. So I stay out of it

losing my job is probably overstating it - but it's so easy to be taken down as a bigot on social media and I can't afford for that to happen. So its best to stay out of it.

Thanks datun, I'd equated him with Grayson who I know more about.

I still like Eddie but I don't like these takes on it.

I think Izzard is an autogynephile. Whilst he was asserting he liked women's clothes he was almost like the acceptable face of AGP (similar to Grayson Perry - a self confessed dress fetishist, out and unapologetic).

Izzard was 'breaking down gender stereotypes' yes. But it served him to do so. Not because he thinks they are damaging, but because he gets off on it.

Now being 'trans' serves him even better. He's at the cutting edge of gender expression - all upfront and trendy.

And yes, i've always liked him, but this latest trip is pissing me off.

I don't know much about his stance in the past - do you think he hid behind socially acceptable norms to support his career? Always felt he was a hero for breaking stereotyped norms.

Great piece. It almost seems like women are gradually feeling able to state some basic truths.

Eddie Izzard though He dined out on his "action transvestite" and "male lesbian" skits for YEARS, and now he's piggybacking on the trans bandwagon? FFS.

I was so pleased to see this. I think we should all write to the Guardian and let them know. Because the letters page in next Saturday's magazine is going to be FULL of this story.

I had no idea. I live in a bubble. I'm sort of glad now I've never got to grips with twitter.

BogQueen - I'm genuinely shocked that you think you'd lose your job if you retweeted

I'm freelance, on an ad hoc assignment right now which I would definitely not be invited to renew if I let my cloven TERF pop out on social media by retweeting/sharing any of these articles.