Feminisms & Porn Project

You want to hear from people who are anti porn, and people who use porn?
Your post read as though you want to hear from people who are anti porn and use porn. Which I thought was a bit limiting!

Yes, I think I broadly agree with Helen. Would I read American Psycho? No, because the extracts I've read in feminist critiques suggest it to be a misogynistic pile of shite. Would I want it banned? No, because I think therein lies the route to madness - where do you draw the line? Does Erdogan in Turkey get to ban books by political oponents? Does Trump get to censor Saturday Night Live? Do the Taliban get to censor music because dancing is dangerously sexual? That way madness lies. The only appropriate test is "was real world violence involved?" Hence my issue with filmed porn, which does not carry over to written erotica, no matter how distasteful I may find some of the subject matter.

At the same time, I'd argue that a defence of free speech is not a defence of the right to avoid the consequences of that free speech. If (to take one concrete example), Catherine McKinnon wants to stand outside a bookshop reading aloud from American Psycho to draw the public's attention to how vilely misogynistic the book is, she should be allowed to do so (in fact, she was arrested by the mall police). You can't have free speech for male misogynists and deny the right to critique that speech to female radical feminists.

Nor does it mean its not open to criticise certain forms of erotica for their contribution to rape culture. I would say, for instance, that Fifty Shades of Grey (or Fifty Shades of Shite as I always think of it) is almost like a text book advocating putting up with a seriously abusive relationship. I don't want to see it banned, but I should be able to say it is both bad writing, and portrays an irreprably damaged relationship, and contributes to a victim-blaming rape culture where women are encouraged, even socially coerced, by wider society to stay with their abusers.

But the problem surely lies in glorifying abuse and eroticising it, not in the erotic in and of itself. Nothing about sex means it has to be coupled to violence.

Not fine, and that's not what I said.

American Psycho, to use your example, is in most bookshops and doesn't need to be found on the internet. It's probably "worse" then a hell of a lot of erotica.

Should it be censored? Perhaps. But that's a different conversation to the OP.

Does some writing, whether erotic or not, contribute to rape/misogynistic culture? Yes. By reading a summary or review of it, can you know if this is one of those pieces and choose whether to read it? Very likely.

Does visual porn sometimes involve actual filmed rape? Yes. By looking at it, can you tell if any one piece is consensual? Certainly not for sure. So avoid.

Separately, some erotica may well be misogynistic, but there is no risk a rape is happening in front of your eyes. Do you feel the same about writing about violence, say?

Yes I think there is writing about violence which in a sense is pornographic. In written porn there is a tremendous crossover between sex and depictions of violence. Even in mainstream fiction you have novels like American Psycho. Now, nobody was actually hurt in American Psycho because it's just a work of fiction but does that mean that those fictional descriptions of sexual violence towards women are fine?

"No not in theory because it's grounded then in your reality, your relationship isn't it? "

Exactly. So the difficulty is in ascertaining true consent in almost all "filmed sex" situations, bar something as specific as my example.

And as the alternatives to true consent are utterly awful, then I don't watch filmed porn.

Separately, some erotica may well be misogynistic, but there is no risk a rape is happening in front of your eyes. Do you feel the same about writing about violence, say?

But that's in part because a lot of porn is quite dehumanising, misogynistic ("slag gets come uppance" kind of thing, though with stronger language) and disregarding of female comfort, let alone arousal.

Erotica is different, though, don't you think?

No I think that that kind of misogynistic language is all too applicable to the vast majority of what is called 'erotica' on the internet. I'm not saying that there isn't a section of erotica somewhere that doesn't fall into that category. I'm sure there is. There's probably some feminist filmed porn somewhere as well but not enough to make a dent in the tidal wave of misogyny.

Taking it to the most certain I could get that consent was true, if DH and I filmed ourselves, would you find an issue with us watching it?

No not in theory because it's grounded then in your reality, your relationship isn't it? Although, having said that I don't think it's ever a good idea for a woman to consent to being filmed in a sexual situation. Let's not forget that 'revenge porn' is a thing now. Just another way in which men can exercise their depravity.

"Isn't there a wealth of material on the negative results of porn on how people view sex "

Mmm. But that's in part because a lot of porn is quite dehumanising, misogynistic ("slag gets come uppance" kind of thing, though with stronger language) and disregarding of female comfort, let alone arousal.

Erotica is different, though, don't you think?

"consent issues aren't the only reason we object to porn are they?"

For me they are the key reason.

" If, hypothetically, I could meet the actors in a porn scene and they personally reassured me that they had gladly consented, and I found their statements to be credible, I would be no more inclined to watch the porn scene than if I had no idea of their consent. Would you?"

Possibly, though my doubt would be around whether I could judge that or if they were acting their gladness, IYSWIM.

Taking it to the most certain I could get that consent was true, if DH and I filmed ourselves, would you find an issue with us watching it?

I think porn dehumanises and I think it reduces us all to sex automatons. Yes, like you say Hedgehog it removes sex from its proper context. It's false.

This isn't that controversial though is it? Isn't there a wealth of material on the negative results of porn on how people view sex and the people they have sex with. It can effect sexual function. It can have a desensitising effect. I thought this was all fairly well established.

Like Helen says there can be no consent issues with written porn, but consent issues aren't the only reason we object to porn are they? If, hypothetically, I could meet the actors in a porn scene and they personally reassured me that they had gladly consented, and I found their statements to be credible, I would be no more inclined to watch the porn scene than if I had no idea of their consent. Would you?

Just my opinion of course. I might be it of step with this forum as it's a bit more liberal.

That's interesting, Cruella, because I haven't come across that particular viewpoint much on here. Am I right in thinking you object to the "intended to be sexually arousing" bit, and if so, why? Is it that it is taken out of context, away from a relationship? Is it that you think it detracts from real world relationships?

I personally see nothing wrong with sexual arousal per se - it is when that sexual arousal comes at the cost of violence to real people, or incites violence towards real people (as a lot of violent, misogynistic porn does) that I find it morally abhorrent. That to me makes perfect sense as a moral distinction, but it seems, not to you, and I'm interested in this.

And there are consent issues around real porn participants which don't exist for imaginary people...

The difference is that filmed or photographed porn shows sexual acts that are actually happening, whilst written porn (erotica) is imaginary/an account of a past experience

This is a fairly standard definition of pornography -

'books, magazines, films, etc. with no artistic value that describe or show sexual acts or naked people in a way that is intended to be sexually exciting'

I really don't understand people who claim that there is an inherent difference between filmed porn and written porn. It's all porn. I'm anti all porn.

Another who thinks erotica and filmed porn are different kettles of fish.

Yup, I'm with Vestal on this one - I not only read, but also write erotic fanfic, but I choose not to consume filmed porn because there is no way of telling as the viewer of the end product whether it was made under duress (i.e. is in fact filmed evidence of rape or sexual assault), or whether it was intended to be shared (cf revenge porn). It is possible there is ethical porn out there, but I'm not prepared to take the risk - I never want to be in a position where I have to say "I just had an orgasm watching another woman be raped."

You'd probably be better off posting this in Chat. There's not many fun fems who post here.

I am anti-porn. Erotic literature and fanfic are not porn.

You will find more people to interview if you acknowledge the differences.

(I'm not London based, so not interesting for your study. Just pointing this out.)