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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Intersectional feminism

183 replies

Fauchelevent · 11/03/2017 19:21

This is my first FWR thread but many of you will know me from the transactivism threads and posts about race and here and there.

On the Rachel Dolezal thread, quite an interesting discussion began about race, feminism and intersectional feminism with Quencher especially raising some very interesting and informed points. But this isn't a TAAT.

The question is intersectionality, intersectional feminism - the movement as it was intended and the movement as it stands.

I'm black, and I feel that discussions with some white women feminists often ignore race or I feel like when race is discussed, there are a lot of issues. Sometimes discussions go down the line of black women setting feminism back by being too hypersexual, muslim/orthodox women seen as backwards and so on. I see on MN a lot of people comparing gender issues to race and saying that if it were race, it would get dealt with but women are on the bottom of the heap. As a black woman i certainly feel shat on for my race as much as my gender. So intersectional feminism seems like the natural destination for women who want and need feminism but feel like mainstream feminism excludes them. Equally, intersectional feminism makes a point to make spaces accessible for disabled people, tackle homophobia and so on.

Yet intersectional feminism has also become a toxic space. It has become a space of stifled debate, regular misogyny and very orwellian. Women who disagree with the party line are blacklisted and sometimes sent death threats. Women who do not toe the party line are also guaranteed to lose any friends in this circle. For example, with student activism becoming increasingly intersectional, it also means there's less room for debate and very little dissent because anyone who disagrees will be ex communicated. So lots of people in their early twenties and younger will have this way of thinking.

I also hear from a lot of feminists who are white that they feel they cannot get involved in intersectional feminist debates because they're shut down as being "White Feminists" even by other (lower case) white feminists.

How do we balance the need for feminism that is aware of racial matters, sexuality, class and so on, because poor women, gay women, and women of colour should not feel shut out of feminism. We have to also understand that women tend to navigate their own cultures and communities differently, we all have different histories and so our feminism may look different and we may need to look outside our experience (making sure disabled feminists can access events and so on)

What we have at the moment is a post modern choice feminism where everyone is included and nothing - including the words woman, female and feminism - has meaning. It means tackling male violence and female oppression takes a back burner and in its place comes discussions of liberating oneself with make up and selfies, whatever you find on everyday feminism, and silencing and violence towards anyone who doesn't agree with absolutely everything in the ideology. Lots of young female feminists are also identifying as non-binary, possibly because they don't have the "feeling like a woman" experience that MTT speak of so assume they must not be women. Occasionally "cis scum" and "white feminists" will be told to shut the fuck up. So its currently full of a lot of issues - but a lot of aspects are it are necessary.

I'm not sure what I hope to get out of this thread really, other than a few thoughts from others. I'm happy to answer any questions - I'm black and early 20s so i have a lot of direct experience with extremely cult like intersectional feminism. Unfortunately I am spartacus though so I get very silenced. Posting on MN is a massive relief. This international womens day was like international virtue signalling day with everyone declaring that its international womens day for everyone who identifies as a woman, non binaries, and all non-cis men and anyone who disagrees should fuck off - so a bit tiresome!

Anyway - no real questions, just hoping for some thoughts and a discussion on intersectional feminism and its issues on the back of the RD thread.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/03/2017 00:42

No insights yet, but that was a brilliant post Fauch and I hope that it does not get lost amongst all the trans posts. I've been thinking along similar-ish lines. What has been bothering me is that intersectionality seems to be limited to feminism - I've seen few cases where black men / anti-racism activists have been warned to think about women / sexism and where men of the left have been warned to think about multiple other oppressions (just as examples). And rich, white, able-bodied men are rarely called on their privilege at all.

PerspicaciaTick · 12/03/2017 00:40

Intentionally or not, intersectionalism seems to have become a means of dividing, distracting and silencing women. It is concept that is being manipulated so that women argue amongst themselves, preventing any useful progress towards equality for all groups of women.

DJBaggySmalls · 12/03/2017 00:20

Fauchelevent my views match those of joystir59. I'm white, working class, left wing and disabled. I am very concerned about all inclusive feminism, it seems very right wing in its methods. And there seem to be an amazing number of white peni in there.
As far as I'm concerned a group with an agenda has hijacked intersectional feminism for its own ends. I dont know how to reclaim it; I think we have to look at moving on and forming a new group.

QuentinSummers · 12/03/2017 00:20

You know what I think fauch Wink
Bit pissed now so following to post some thing when I'm sober in the morning.

joystir59 · 11/03/2017 22:25

I am not a big respecter of culture when culture= abuse. So for example I see FGM as a feminist issue- for all feminists, regardless of whether we belong to a culture that practises FGM. I think its racist to dismiss abuse such as FGM as 'just their culture'.
I'm for women's liberation; a TERF who has lost patience with liberal feminism that refuses to acknowledge the damaging and dangerous misogyny of transactivism. I think much can be done if we stick to what is important- freeing ALL women from the oppression of the patriarchy. And leaving other people's issues alone.

VestalVirgin · 11/03/2017 21:26

I'm allergic to the word "intersectional" by now.

It seems mostly a silencing tactic. I am of the opinion that some things are universal, and that I am not "whorephobic" because I am of the opinion that women's bodies shouldn't be for sale, or an arrogant "white feminist" because I assume that no girl ever really wants to have her genitals cut off.

I have some capacity for empathy, and I want to get to use it. "But it's their culture" sounds so suspiciously like "Well, they're subhuman, they don't feel pain as we do".

I'm always willing to listen if someone wishes to tell me that, say, girls who haven't had their genitals mutilated can't find husbands and why this matters.
But I fucking hate people who try to tell me that I'm wrong to assume that others feel pain the same as I do.

Fauchelevent · 11/03/2017 20:50

I agree that it does cloud a lot of issues. FGM, as touched on on the linked thread for example is a tough one to bring up as it seems to, firstly, only be allowed to be discussed by women from cultures which practice FGM (lest we speak over them/cultural imperialism - even though we're all equally outraged and together we could get some shit done) and also the fact it happens to females seems to piss off the transactivists who don't want vaginas equated with womanhood

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Datun · 11/03/2017 19:56

I'm not well read enough about feminism, let alone intersectional feminism. But i've noticed several times on these threads that it is clouding a lot of issues.

The Critical Sisters event in Cheltenham today talked about it though. prawn touches on what was said at the end of this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2874499-Critical-sisters-event-this-Saturday-anyone-else-going