Intersectional feminism

I think like others have said it's a proper example of today's "intersectional feminism" where you can end up putting the needs of other groups ahead of women if you feel they are more oppressed.
That's fine but to me it isn't feminism.

Gotcha.

I don't think so make.
After listening to various brexit debates I've come to the conclusion that right wingers are much less interested in compromise and much more competitive. "I'm right, your wrong"
Although I wouldn't necessarily say the debate here is a left wing thing. I think like others have said it's a proper example of today's "intersectional feminism" where you can end up putting the needs of other groups ahead of women if you feel they are more oppressed.
That's fine but to me it isn't feminism.

Do right-wingers have these sorts of conversations? I have always thought they had the great advantage of not having to think at these levels of detail.

Nigel: Well, in a behavioural sense, if we look at the data, we find that structurally...
Oliver: The poor are lazy.
Nigel: ......right.

TBH this is what totally fucks me off about intersectional feminism, that I post something that to me seems fairly straightforward in feminist terms and then get tarred with some form of bigotry

This

But I would also add that the 'bigotry' accusations get meted out most by people who want feminism to focus on the plight of males in some way, often trying to twist the analysis of the Status Quo to look like the oppressor - 'The Man' - is actually female - a 'White Feminist' - in other words second wave radical feminism is the problem, not Patriarchy or Imperialism or any other dominating power hierarchy (or the way they intersect).

It's class prejudice because it is entirely erasing what working class men and women from those communities have done for the development of rights. In the UK working class communities mentioned (by Guardian) many trade union rights were established, as was the Workers' Educational Association.
Still confused as to why objecting to the term "feminisation" and posting some information about the so-called "mancession" means I have class prejudice and am erasing anyone's contribution to workers rights . And TBH this is what totally fucks me off about intersectional feminism, that I post something that to me seems fairly straightforward in feminist terms and then get tarred with some form of bigotry without really being aware of exactly what I have done to deserve it.

What phrasing do you think should be used then, Quentin? How do we discuss the impact of socially constructed gender in the job market for a particular sex?
I don't think feminisation or masculinisation are helpful because they to me imply something is being changed from a natural state to a forced abnormal state. Probably because I'm a biologist and masculinisation means something different/medical.
I would prefer to talk about female dominated jobs/male dominated jobs or traditionally female/traditionally male employment.

I saw a lot of uses of it in my brief search suggesting changing behavioural expectations in the work place - ie- the workplace is becoming increasingly 'feminised' because of feminism changing behavioural expecations on men (ie- no being an uncouth, lecherous dickhead at work or face a tribunal).

It's an umbrella term for gender roles of women as a class.

Many changes to women's work roles are not positive at all, are not the result of feminism but of austerity and loss of working rights. So the phrase feminisation does not indicate things are getting better for women.

Thanks for the link almond
It took me a while to discover that what the person who wrote the Fawcett report means by 'feminised' workplace - basically cleaning, catering, clerical, caring, right?

I didn't find that helpful. What they essentially mean is a past tense term for sectors of work women have historically been limited to.

This is a very different meaning to a future tense notion of workplaces that are becoming increasingly 'feminised' as a result of feminism and in some part contributing to a 'mancession'

Just Googled 'feminised job market' still none the wiser. It threw up very different uses - some about the influence of feminism -some about the presence of women, some about job titles, some about changing behavioural expectations. I don't see how 'feminisation of the workplace' is a meaningful umbrella term for all that, or whether all that actually even belongs under one umbrella term anyway. To me lumping it all together under that term is clearly sexist.

It is used here for example:

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/The-Changing-Labour-Market-2.pdf

Guardian, why don't you just google feminised job market and look at study after study using the phrase?

Or maybe you can start by explaining the social mechanisms by which women are oppressed in a systemic manner so I can understand how you use language? Because I don't think I can explain to you when we seem to be lacking an agreement on basic feminist terminology.

Please give me an example of where you think 'feminised' or 'masculinsed' are helpful terms in class-based analysis [because I'm completely flummoxed and can't think of any] and I will be able to suggest terminology I believe would be more accurate and less sexist.

'But I am not with you on the idea that the men in these communities do/did not have certain advantages over the women in these communities rooted in patriarchy and male dominance.'

I never said this and certainly do not believe so. Of course they do and did.

By the way almond I am totally with you on all of this:
In the UK working class communities mentioned (by Guardian) many trade union rights were established, as was the Workers' Educational Association.

The history of the appalling way those communities were treated, the police and government brutality, the unsafe working conditions and demands

And this

the impact mass male job loss in an area has on women, who not only face economic pressure but also face a greater pressure of doing the unpaid work of community building when a key part of the community's identity, history and social role is collapsing.

But I am not with you on the idea that the men in these communities do/did not have certain advantages over the women in these communities rooted in patriarchy and male dominance ie - that patriarchy and male dominance magically disappear during class struggles.

That's a critique, not an alternative.

How are you proposing that feminists describe the socially constructed gender role ascribed to women when carrying out class analysis, if you are unhappy with femininity/feminised etc?

How do we discuss the impact of socially constructed gender in the job market for a particular sex?

I don't see how reinforcing gender stereotypes is going to help - I can't think of a context where the terms 'feminised' or 'masculinised' workplace will bring clarity rather than confusion and lazy thinking.

It's class prejudice because it is entirely erasing what working class men and women from those communities have done for the development of rights

Sorry you need to explain this bit a bit better - I cannot see how you would glean from my position that my feminism is based on class prejudice. The labour/trade union movement has been and still is key to the promotion of women's rights - I have at no point said anything to the contrary.

And ethnicised is used to refer to job markets. There isn't an uproar, The meaning is clear when read in context.

What phrasing do you think should be used then, Quentin?

How do we discuss the impact of socially constructed gender in the job market for a particular sex?

It's class prejudice because it is entirely erasing what working class men and women from those communities have done for the development of rights. In the UK working class communities mentioned (by Guardian) many trade union rights were established, as was the Workers' Educational Association.

The history of the appalling way those communities were treated, the police and government brutality, the unsafe working conditions and demands is wholly at odds with the notion that men from such communities had an 'unfair advantage.' The fight for education and skills is at odds with the notion of people without skills or education.

It is also taking it completely out of the context of those communities, and the impact mass male job loss in an area has on women, who not only face economic pressure but also face a greater pressure of doing the unpaid work of community building when a key part of the community's identity, history and social role is collapsing.

Are there particular forms of misogyny in different working class communities? Of course, but most of the argument here seems to be over an MRA stereotype used largely by young, college educated men (Milo Yiannopolous, for example) that does not reflect on the actual difficulties for those communities for both men and women.

I don't think the fact that phrase is currently socially acceptable means that at its roots it isn't betraying sexist notions of how the world works.
This

user said Stereotypically male jobs are disappearing while the job market is being more and more feminised and used the phrase "mancession"
The implication is that white working class men in the US are disadvantaged while the evidence is that in fact women and ethnic minorities have been harder hit but are more adaptable to the new circumstances.
I do take exception to "feminised job market" and I don't think the fact that phrase is currently socially acceptable means that at its roots it isn't betraying sexist notions of how the world works. There are lots of things that have been in common parlance historically that are no longer acceptable, sadly it seems that openly misogynist language is the last to go
Can you imagine the uproar if the labour market was being described as ethnicised?

I will come back to the white working class issue, but it seems highly related to the offence taken at the phrase 'feminised job market.'

This is not an anti feminist phrase. If you google it, there are pages of results from sociology, anthropology, human rights groups and geographers using the phrase.

I'm not saying that no MRA has ever used the phrase 'feminised job market' but that is not where the phrase comes from or its most common association.

It is widely accepted by the UN and other related groups that femininity and masculinity are the terms we used to describe socially constructed gender roles. It has been widely used by feminists.

I myself use such phrasing, such as the global feminisation of poverty.

There was absolutely nothing in User's posts that suggested that she was using such phrasing to imply that women's work was down to innate abilities of women and men. She was clearly talking from a feminist perspective on why she does not find privilege a helpful concept.

Quencher I agree with what you said about service industries - and I think this is what a lot of people have in mind when the term 'feminised workforce' is used - ie - if you don't have grease and soot deeply ingrained into your callused hands, then you aren't doing man's work
Quentin thanks for you USA article etc - it illustrates the male- entitied thing perfectly.

For the record, my feminism is woman-centred and based on a desire to end male dominance and oppression of women and girls.
Although I also believe in ending all forms oppression, I do not consider this feminism where it does not concern women or ending male dominance - it is something else.
From what I understand, intersectional feminism is intended to be about women but detailing the way other forms of oppressions intersect with sex-based oppression of women in compounded and nuanced oppressive ways. Unfortunately the MRA''s, TRA''s and exploiters and users of the sex/p*rn industries, and other antifeminists have hijacked intersectional feminism, so that it is effectively not a form of feminism at all - since it is all too often putting men first and theoretically and actively antifeminist in the discourse eg- focusing on the plight of [white, working class] men affected by capitalism and using[/minimising/excusing] woman-blaming antifeminist language like 'feminised workforce'.