Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is also Spartacus

I initially read that as they'd rage the unisex ones but I guess not.

The issue is misogyny and male violence.

A colleague had the delightful experience of being watched, head under wall, while getting changed this week after going swimming. The man was eventually arrested. She went through all the stages that women go through when sexually assaulted; self blame, fear or repeat, being believed, why did I freeze? It hit her the next day at work. I felt so angry on her behalf.

A comment on the channel 4 facebook article...

Unisex bathrooms? I wouldn't want to share a bathroom with cis men! I have feared being raped since I was a little kid! I am completely against the idea of unisex bathrooms, unless we get to keep the male and female ones and have it as a third option.

Said by a transwoman.

So...where does that leave us? If gender neutral was an option, trans women would still use the female areas as they are scared of males. Hmm.

Thanks for that link Quentin - very interesting!

Have you been reading the intersectional feminism thread on here? It's interesting.

Totally counter productive, Quentin. Several years ago I was all in on liberal feminism, but the "you can't speak for X because you're not X" while X is happily speaking for me and assuming they know my experience just got to be too much for me.

Hi mama. I wonder how many of us end up here after being treated like that? It's pretty counter productive

I got into a discussion in a feminist group about her words, which I felt were measured, respectful, and true. I was basically told to sit down, shut up, and fuck off. So I did fuck off, and finally joined mumsnet after lurking for a long long time.

Which is to say that this was my "peak trans", and I'm happy to be here.

Just read this, like it very much
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/03/chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-tea-party-word-privilege-isnt-getting-us-anywhere

I'm just adding this as sometimes I feel like the only one outside of mumsnet who feels this way but there are at least 2k like minds

I feel like I'm the only one on my FB timeline who feels this way. . My timeline is full of shouty men - gay and straight - frothing about the transphobic nature of seperate toilets.

They may know how I feel now though, because I've been busy "liking" posts by CNA's defenders.

I really rate Chimamanda (have just read Americanah which is a fantastic book). I support everything she says, and am bloody delighted that her argument is focused on the damage caused by misogyny and the harm caused by gender roles. I hope it resonates widely

I'm not 100% how Facebook rank the comments on a post, but I think it might be by 'most liked'. the first comment showing under her clarification is a post from a trans woman agreeing with CNA. My point being that the most liked post agrees with her - over 2k people agreeing.

I'm just adding this as sometimes I feel like the only one outside of mumsnet who feels this way but there are at least 2k like minds.

From small acorns and all.

Anyway, back to lurking.

Helen Highwater, a transwoman noted for her gender critical outlook was on here once, and I honestly felt a massive affinity with her. It was exactly like talking to another woman.

Unfortunately, these transwomen are few and far between.

She also had no illusions at all about the fact she was born male. And I completely agreed with that. She was born male. I enjoyed talking to her and if she was in the very small minority of people with gender dysphoria who wanted to be considered women, I would have a little problem. As another transwan on here said a few days ago when she was young they numbered in the hundreds.

Times have changed. And because of the way this is going, there has to be a distinction between men identifying as women and women.

HeyRoly

I can sort of understand it. It's like having opportunity to express and enjoy the superficiality of femininity with a novice. And the gratitude and approval you receive is probably very affirming. If you are in an exclusive club and someone is desperate to join, it has a feel good 'someone-thinks-I'm-sooo-cool kind of vibe.

And I'm quite sure it's only young women who take up this role. Because sexism start to ramp up the older you get. Partly because over time you see it more, but also because once your biology kicks in (pregnancy, not pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, raising children, menopause), you begin to see more and more how and why women are treated differently.

Hurrah!

They prioritise and coddle transwomen not because they actually believe they're women, but BECAUSE they know they're male.

Yes! I had such an epiphany reading that!

I've come across scores of women praising transwomen/"non-binary trans" lately, on a couple of different platforms.

"You look amazing!"
"Look at those legs/that waist"
"I'm jealous!"

There's always a slightly patronising air to it, like "there there, I'll tell you what you want to hear". Also quite a large serving of virtue signalling, probably. But it is absolutely because they're male.

They can understand how appropriating womanhood is abhorrent to women, but they can't understand what it's like to actually be a woman.

But maybe it's the fact they recognise they can't fully understand what's it's actually like? To me that is truly respectful of a person's circumstance.

I don't know many, and none personally, but from snippets I've read there are a few.

I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.

I agree- it's a bit like that Groucho Marx quip about not wanting to be in a club that would allow him in. Thoughtful transgender women are aware enough of their own privilege and baggage having been brought up male to understand that their presence in certain situations is violating.

I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.

Personally, except in very rare cases, I believe they are making a concession. Whilst they may 'get' why women get angry about this, they can never 'get' what it means to be one. They can understand how appropriating womanhood is abhorrent to women, but they can't understand what it's like to actually be a woman.

^^regarding my comment above, I think I keep thinking of the trans woman who was on crime watch.

This is so hard to debate with in my head let alone out!

I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.

The comments section is really interesting and the ability to hold all the cards is actually very impressive. The we are all women so have as much of a right to discuss issues unless trans related then we are not all women and your view is irrelevant if you are not trans.

In all honesty, I don't think anyone really deep down sees a trans woman as woman first, it is always man first, then woman (in thought processes) - we quell the 'wrong' and express the 'right'. The only people who might are the trans women them selves, but it even then as they know they had to go through tough times from one to the other, so ultimately also will see the individual as having once been a man.

But if there's no shame in it, if it's acceptable, why can't they be proud to be trans? We have separate identities for gay, bi and straight. It's ok. It's not ok to persecute any of them.

It's not homophobic to say I'm straight?

I read deep, archetypically masculine voices chanting "transwomen are women" as the equivalent of a child sticking his fingers in his ears and going "la la la". In both cases they want to ignore inconvenient truths. The endless repetitions of this claim - a claim they know as well as I do just isn't true - is an attempt to convince by aggression and sheer force of masculine authority.

Countess I liked where she said that 'cis' is not an organic part of her vocabulary. You're right; thereby hangs a tale.

'Transwomen are men. '

Being honest, this is how i feel too. I would use female pronouns and the chosen name of a transwoman out of politeness but deep down, i would still see them as a man. There is no such thing as feeling 'like a woman', no such thing as a female brain, and heels / make up / dresses / long hair are for everyone who wants them and have nothing whatsoever to do with being a woman, plenty of women have zero interest in any of that. Everyone should be protected from violence and harassment but i am really disturbed by the mass delusion and gaslighting involved in the assertion that men are actually women if they 'feel' like they are.