Supporting trans rights and feminism

Well of course. Because men are people and women are women, but while we are all socialised to understand this innately, we don't consciously see it.

But it stops us from seeing patterns. Like the fact that rapists are men, that terrorists are men, that mass shooters are men, that gang bosses are men, that family annihilators are men. Feminists see this but we're told that we're being discriminatory against men by pointing it out

We (people in general) tend to see "lone shooters" or terrorists etc as "people" rather than noticing their maleness. Male is the default, so it's assumed and hence not noted.

Excellent summary prawn

BertieBotts

This is such a serious risk that even people who claim sexism is dead understand the need for refuges, rape crisis centres, single sex prisons and hospital wards, laws against date-rape drugs, and the age old advice for women not to do anything which puts them at risk.

I find the amount of blindness, or cognitive dissonance involved in people understanding about male violence at the same time as thinking we've reached equality, infuriating and shocking in equal measure.

It's almost as if, in their head, they consider male violence to be something separate outside of the question of sex/gender.

"Oh yeah, rape, yeah there's always that". Like it's just random, the same reason that people get attacked by bears.

I can't see that any of the trans activist demands are compatible with feminism. Feminism rejects gender, transgenderism glorifies it. Feminists know women are oppressed because of their sex. Trans activists deny that sex matters in any way. And their demand to access all and any women's spaces, from prisons to colleges, reduces or eradicates provisions and protections that our foremothers fought for.

Feminism is about women and girls. Transmen are included because they are girls or women (a scary number are teenagers). But trans activists are exclusively male, and mostly heterosexual - there are so many blogs and posts from lesbians sick of having their events, bars and social groups colonised by transwomen.who identify as lesbian. Because transwomen are male feminism is not about them.

Feminism says women are oppressed because of our biology. It notes that women can't identify their way out of this sex based oppression.

I've never heard a feminist argue for violence or oppression of transwomen. There's no hatred. But if you don't agree that transwomen are women, that's enough to label you a transphobic bigot. Which makes Mother Nature the biggest bigot of all.

The trans agenda is to make gender identity the only distinction that matters, so the women's showers are open to anyone who identifies as a woman. Sex divisions in sport, prisons, hospital wards, etc must be replaced by gender. On another thread we heard from a HCP who has been given guidance that transwomen are to be treated as women in psychiatric wards, and that any woman who protests is to be discharged. The guidelines pointed out that transwomen with MH problems may have given up on shaving, makeup etc so may not even present as women but because of their gender identity any bitch woman who is scared of an obvious man in her psychiatric ward, ffs, must be told to STFU.

For me I'd like to see a post gender world where sex didn't matter for most things. That would mean that in the case of your colleague it wouldn't matter what you "saw" her as because when you're working with somebody their sex is totally irrelevant to you. You are not performing medicine on them, you are not having sex with them, you are just working with them. Why should it matter whether she is male or female any more than it should matter if she is blonde or brown haired, if her blood group is A or O? There are not very many jobs where a person's sex and by extension gender matters. But we are not very far forward from a time when it did, when men and women were considered so different that we did different jobs and had totally different strengths and roles.

When you strip everything else down, there are two situations where sex matters and that's biological reality: things like the shape of someone's body being different, the ability to get or make somebody pregnant - infertility issues aside - the possibility of menstruation, the ability to pee standing up. These are things which need to be accounted for; women need facilities to deal with their periods in public, private and workplaces, we need to know somebody's sex if we plan to have children with them, pregnancy is a characteristic which needs protection e.g. for health and employment purposes, we have different requirements in terms of safety equipment, medicines and the shape of form-fitting clothing.

The other situation where sex matters is in the context of sex based violence. That is, the ability to rape and the possibility of being raped. Domestic violence likelihood, effect and outcome differs by sex of perpetrator and victim. Honour crimes. Many, many different possibilities all under the heading of male violence against women. This is such a serious risk that even people who claim sexism is dead understand the need for refuges, rape crisis centres, single sex prisons and hospital wards, laws against date-rape drugs, and the age old advice for women not to do anything which puts them at risk. They might argue that these services are equally needed for both sexes (they aren't, the statistics show us this) but they will not argue that they aren't needed. We may argue against advice which puts the onus onto victims to prevent attacks, rightly IMO, but that doesn't change the fact that most people recognise there is enough of a trend for that advice to exist.

Transactivists are usually on board with the first reason, even if they prefer to use gender-neutral terms to describe these needs. The second is more problematic and usually ends up with lots of shouting about who has it worst, which doesn't answer the question of whether these facilities are needed and why if they are needed transgender people need to swap to the other facility. Any suggestion of having totally separate facilities is then met by cries of discrimination, as though a women's refuge or prison is some kind of club that you can't get access to, not a place that nobody wants to end up in in the first place.

Yes jelly I think that may be where I run into a problem, I'm not sure how you define a man or woman... to me a woman just is a woman... there's a trans woman I work with and I just accept that she's a woman, that's how she presents herself I never thought to question that.

For me she's a transwoman rather than a woman (which to me is just about biology because everything else is just presenting as the stereotype of what a woman should be) and that's great that she can present in the way she feels most comfortable.

What brought me to this point was someone asking 'What does it mean to live as a woman?' and basically it's just living up to the gender stereotype as it's certainly not about periods or menopause.

What I don't like is the feeling of a tiny minority trying to shout women down and screaming 'transphobic' at any attempts to discuss genuine issues.

I couldn't agree more. Also, that tiny minority does not represent the views of all trans people. They are just the ones who shout the loudest. Trans people are a varied group and they may have different opinions, just like anyone else.

I guess it depends how you define woman which seems to be up for grabs at the moment. Legally all it takes is a gender recognition certificate. Biologically, a sex change, hormones and a GRC are not going to stop a transgender woman getting prostate cancer or other male diseases so biologically still a man.

Most importantly, it will also not change the fact that male musculature and bone structure is different and males have an unfair advantage over women in sports.

I support the rights of transwomen and transmen to not be harrassed or mistreated, to dress how they want and to call themselves what they want. I do not accept being relabelled as 'ciswoman' whilst transwomen steal (for want of a better word) the term 'woman' whilst also saying they are 'women' whilst calling anyone who dares to bring biology into it transphobic. I don't want transwomen to be allowed to compete in women's sports, again down to that pesky issue of biology.

I think transgender people should be able to be open about being transgender in the same way as lesbian and gay people can be open, without demanding that their original gender be hidden or pretending they have whichever chromosomes they want to disown. I think the law needs changed to make it illegal to medically transition a child, they should be an adult before they make such a life-altering decision.

Given that most transwomen don't have surgery, I'm not comfortable with sharing women only spaces. Unisex/all cubicle toilets, perhaps. What I don't like is the feeling of a tiny minority trying to shout women down and screaming 'transphobic' at any attempts to discuss genuine issues.

If someone can find a way to enable transwomen to share spaces safely, to compete in women's sports without having a male-born advantage/causing physical risk to women, or to manage children transitioning in a non-harmful way, I'm all ears, but that discussion isn't happening.

If they are separate, then they are single, self-contained cubicles, which I think most rational people would be in favour of.

but they are not. its not even a question. they want to use bathrooms of whatever they 'identify'. i identify as a cat and i will sue my school/workplace for not providing me with a litter tray!

*But I'm not sure I understand what you mean about biology.

If a trans woman had had all the surgeries is she now a woman?

I've seen posts on MN about how "you can't change your sex" and "no amount of surgery will turn a man into a women" etc.*

Transactivists say that biology doesn't matter, that it's how you feel that counts and is what makes you a woman (or not). I say that biology is ALL that matters, it's the periods and the breasts and pregnancy and the fact that I have a vagina that mean that I am treated the way I am and the reason that women are mistreated over history.

I don't believe that a transwoman is a woman (in the biological sense) even if she has had all the surgeries. She will still be at risk of prostate cancer and other male diseases. I don't believe you can identify out of biology.

But I thought that once a trans person had transitioned then that was it, you are a woman/man now. Or am I just misunderstanding the situation completely?

I guess it depends how you define woman which seems to be up for grabs at the moment. Legally all it takes is a gender recognition certificate. Biologically, a sex change, hormones and a GRC are not going to stop a transgender woman getting prostate cancer or other male diseases so biologically still a man.

For me, feminism means I am opposed to gender. I am opposed to the social construct that creates a hierarchy with men at the top and women at the bottom. I don't want a gender identity. I want to dismantle those hierarchical structures.

For me, they are welcome to the gender side of things, I believe people should be able to present how they wish without discrimination.

I do have an issue with biology being denied though as biology is the ONLY thing that defines me as a woman and is the only reason we should be treated differently (sports, health etc.).

If they are separate, then they are single, self-contained cubicles, which I think most rational people would be in favour of.

I'm wondering about the disabled. Their toilets are separate and genderless. Yet i haven't heard them whinge about "identifying as" or being "misgendered".

Bertie, there is nothing in your post that is either hate filled or transphobic, it just reads as common sense.

They are in opposition.

Feminism is factual. We are the female sex, you are the male sex, sex is a demonstrable thing, sex discrimination demonstrably happens, the female sex are disadvantaged by sexism, the female sex need spaces, organisations, and services specific to the female sex to enable them to overcome inherent sexism of society and to meet health and privacy needs specific to that sex.

Trans rights demand that the above category, sex, not be recognised and protected.
Trans rights REQUIRE people to adopt a gender identity instead. Rights cannot be conferred based on gender identity if the majority reject that they have one. You can't sort all people into categories for sport, and employment quotas, and prisons based on a concept that doesn't exist.

There is an imposition on others required from the Trans activist agenda. Everyone MUST declare a gender identity. It's like enforced religion. It's an ideology that forces people to submit to a belief that is untrue.

But all those rights that clash with women's rights, would only come into effect if they had the legal status of the opposite sex.

Living free from violence and discrimination is not a new right for anyone. That right is already in place.

The conflict only arises over the legal status of their sex.

Unless I'm missing something.

I think they are in opposition - the trans agenda does not say gender is a social construct, it say gender is an innate characteristic.

Btw, many would consider my position to be hate filled or transphobic.

You can support the rights of trans people to live life free from violence and discrimination, to go about their everyday business without having to disclose or answer awkward questions about their gender for example, support the rights of all people to wear what they want, etc, without being contradictory to feminism. Indeed many radical feminists would agree that a person's gender is irrelevant to most parts of life and shouldn't be a problem.

The difficulty comes in the few areas where trans rights and women's rights are at odds. For example some transwomen believe that in order to be accepted as female they must have access to female only space. But most female only space is created for reasons of protection against male violence or specifically to discuss the lived experience of being female and growing up female, which transwomen don't have. Their lived experience is undoubtedly also difficult but it is different.

Another point where transgender rights and women's rights clash is women's recognition in sports. It's not fair that a trans woman, who has male biology is counted as female. It undermines the reason for separating the sexes in sport.

Lastly it's a problem for women's rights when transgender people commit crimes and are recorded as their transitioned gender in statistics rather than their natal sex, because this causes problems in recording and assessing patterns and trends of male violence against women.

Sorry my phone keeps separating the words trans woman, not me.

In short the problem is not transgender people in general, the problem is that sometimes transgender rights and women's rights are fighting for different things. I do support trans people but where there's a clash I will come down on the side of women's rights because I think this is still important and necessary.