Supporting trans rights and feminism

Good point. And let's not forget the Greens and their 'non-men' fiasco. What riled me about that was the amount of female spokespeople coming forward and saying 'well I don't mind being a non-man'. They may as well have just put on pinnies and chained themselves to 1950s style kitchen sinks. Ffs.

No, no offence here either

At one time I thought the same as you, and that they would be natural allies, but after spending time among get them my eyes were opened. Look at the way the SWP dealt with allegations of sexual assaults being carried out by men in the group - basically to blame the victims and try to ban them from speaking about it. Of course not all men on the left are like that, but there is a sizeable number who are white, middle class and heterosexual and who can't relate to any point of view that doesn't fit in with what they experience.

No, not offended at all and sorry if I inadvertently caused offence too.

The thing is, and again it's difficult because it's so subjective, the men I'm thinking of would have been the last people I'd expect to just throw women under a bus like this, metaphorically speaking. I guess that's what got me wondering about other motivations. You're probably right and it is just plain old chauvinism.

I can see what you are saying, and I apologise if I've offended you. However, no I don't think it's because they are attracted to transwoman, rather that they have spent decades defining women themselves (usually as the people who shut up and make the tea while the men get on with talking about the important stuff), so they don't have a problem with redefining women again. Especially when doing so means they are supporting other men. It's good old fashioned chauvinism with a modern twist.

In other words, women's rights have never been important to them, they believe men are the default and if they wish to redefine women they jolly well can.

fag hags.

I also have another theory that women who are prepared to sacrifice the feminist cause in place of trans everything are a bit like the day hags of 20 years ago (of which I was one btw) who are postponing thinking about their own oppression to focus vicariously on the oppression of others.

It would be Homophobic if I was saying there was anything wrong with it. I'm not and there isn't.

I'm not saying all, just maybe some. Not intended as Homophobic. Just something I'm pondering as I've heard lots of men who do sleep with trans women are quite secretive about it. I'm not straight myself.

Homophobic not homophones

No I think brocialists side with TRAs because they are inherently sexist and don't see women as real people. They've ignored women's issues numerous times in the past so they don't have a problem with doing so over this.

Sorry, but it's more than a little homophones to suggest they can only be doing it due to being secretly gay. They are het men who enjoy all the privileges of being straight and male, which is why they put the rights of other straight males ahead of the rights of women, or gay people for that matter.

Fair enough, I just thought maybe if some of these influential men are having trouble dealing with being attracted to men dressed as women (sorry) then forcing society to accept them as women means they don't have to deal with their own homosexuality or attraction to transport people, depending on how you look at it.

Thanks prawn :)

user I think it's far more likely that they just identify more with MtFs than they do with feminists.

Sorry, just catching up with the thread. Ace post yesterday lunchtime, BertieBotts.

I'm sorry if that question sounds witch-hunty or Homophobic or transphobic. Obviously there would be nothing wrong with such an attraction. I just started wondering whether there was a factor I might have been overlooking because, ime, it does tend to be usually white middle class men who set the tone of most of these sorts of political discussions and I get the impression anecdotally that mtf have more luck with that demographic than they do with women in general.

I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but does any one else here feel like some of the brocialists they know who are particularly defensive about mtf trans people are maybe looking out for their own sexual preferences rather than seeing things objectively? Just a hunch. Obviously I don't know.

Actually, quite a few people with true gender dysphoria have said on here that they don't want to be accepted unquestioningly as the opposite sex. My guess is it's the autogynophiles who are the most obsessive about 'passing' or brainwashing everyone into not identifying them as trans.

Part of the problem we have is that if MtT want to be seen, or even need to be seen as real actual women, rather than a facsimile of a woman, then they will obviously need to encroach on hard won women's spaces and services in order to validate their self image. It's only part of the problem, because I am referring to the MtT who have body/gender dysphorias, not the far more common AGP type who want access for completely different purposes.

It's difficult as well to find common ground when anything which doesn't agree exactly with transactivists ideas ends up with me being shouted down/labelled TERF/transphobic. There's no 'discussion' going on on twitter, I've now had quite a few abusive tweets just for saying I don't want to be labelled as ciswoman, or as anything except woman, or to suggest biology can't be ignored. I have at no point name-called, or been unwilling to listen to opposing views, but have been met with pure hostility and outrage. Favourite terms today - 'human milk feeding' and 'incubator'.

Transgenderism in it's current form is ideologically in opposition to feminism. And on several levels.

Transgenderism is based in identity politics whereas feminism is about politics of class. Transgenderism is not only pro gender but is founded on gender whilst feminism is gender critical and radical feminism is anti genderism.

It's a bit like the impossibility of a laissez faire mega capitalist neoliberal position having much in common with a Marxist socialist workers union position.

So tell me, what great battle are trans women fighting, and (if it isn't the right to people like me back in our gendered boxes), then tell me how I can be of grip?

Well that is the question that never gets answered. They don't want their own rights, they want the rights of all women to be handed over.

Of help

Yes, you can come to the conclusion that trans people and other people are different but equal.

And remember that suffragettes didn't die because they wanted to use the men's loos and call themselves men. - They wanted basic human rights such as the right to vote, and to see their children after separation and to be regarded as equal to men under the law - all things which trans people can already do and be.

So tell me, what great battle are trans women fighting, and (if it isn't the right to people like me back in our gendered boxes), then tell me how I can be of grip?

I believe what she's referring to is that transactivists do not want neutral toilets. They want segregated toilets and then to choose which of those they enter. Railgunner also wants a separate toilet for her identification (cat) which makes just as much sense as the other thing, quite frankly.

but they are not. its not even a question. they want to use bathrooms of whatever they 'identify'. i identify as a cat and i will sue my school/workplace for not providing me with a litter tray!

I have no clue what you're trying to say with this railgunner, but it's not very sensible.

You stated that disabled loos were separate, and I agreed that they are and that I would have no problem with people having separate cubicles, nor would most rational people. Quite what elicited your rant about cat litter, I have no clue.