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Original poster

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

767 replies

dorade · 09/03/2017 10:13

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

  1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.
  1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.
  1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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FloAndTheLaptop · 29/03/2017 16:31

Interestingly there was an article in the DM today about a 90 something old man who finally had the courage to be a woman. Just like that he is a woman, cool eh?

"'My whole life has been a lie': World War II veteran comes out as transgender at the age of NINETY - and says she's not ruling out surgery" on nhs?

Under the article there were loads of supportive comment, like bless, wish you well, be yourself etc. Odd, for DM readership. Not so odd comment such as Great Legs, looking sexy etc. Confused

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem
MercyMyJewels · 29/03/2017 16:18

Ha I didn't notice that typo. Your version makes more sense Grin

ATailofTwoKitties · 29/03/2017 16:14

I just read that as 'to weather the flamingos that are handed out'.

Oops.

venusinscorpio · 29/03/2017 15:10

Cross post with Mercy.

venusinscorpio · 29/03/2017 15:09

Wood, FWIW I voted Remain but I was quite shocked at the level of discussion afterwards and insults thrown at Leavers. I think it's totally counter-productive. We are just going to have to get on with it now. You had every right to vote for what you think is best. Please don't give up on gender critical topics, we need you!

MercyMyJewels · 29/03/2017 15:09

Flowers wood. I voted remain but I keep the fuck away from Brexit debates as they are so toxic. Same for Scottish referendum stuff. Actually, much of MN is fairly contentious and you need a hide of steel to weather the flamings that are handed out.

We don't all have to agree on everything in order for us to agree and work together on other important issues - we are not clones. Try not to let it get to you.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 29/03/2017 15:00

Thank you CoolJazz, you have made me feel much better. Will reply further later.

CoolJazz · 29/03/2017 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 29/03/2017 11:29

Well, sadly some of the people I have been following on Twitter in relation to gender critical feminism think it's acceptable to call me a racist and a fool because I voted to leave the EU. I'm not really sure I want to be campaigning politically or generally in contact with people who can't treat me and the other 17 plus million leave voters with a modicum of decency.

Sad, but there you go.

Don't people realise that you don't win people over by insulting them, and that the way to change public opinion on an issue is not to piss of everyone who doesn't agree with you on absolutely everything else?

Will probably give up.

venusinscorpio · 28/03/2017 14:21

Was it the same response that other people have posted on other threads? It seems there is a prepared statement.

SeaRabbit · 28/03/2017 14:16

My email to my (male) MP got a typical bland response, ignoring all the points I had made, and being very inclusive. Why am I not surprised?

fakenamefornow · 28/03/2017 07:55

From just reading that link headline, I completely agree with Paris, unconditional love and support is ALL they need, what they don't need is transitioning.

OlennasWimple · 28/03/2017 01:57

Mango - I agree, most people see it as simple commonsense that sport is segregated by sex for very good reasons, and no amount of feelz (or even full bottom surgery and hormone therapy) can level the playing field between males and females.

Meanwhile in Guardian land, Paris Lees thinks all transgender teens need is unconditional love and support...

MangoSplit · 27/03/2017 22:06

I think that previously he had considered it from the POV of a boy who feels that he should have been born a girl, but not really from the POV of a girl who wants to be a girl but has some 'typically male' traits (I was focusing on the male brain / female brain nonsense). Also the sport thing, which to be honest I can't see how any reasonable person can disagree with, but I don't think he was fully aware of the situation beforehand.

Datun · 27/03/2017 12:11

MangoSplit

What was it that made him change his mind? Was there a lightbulb moment?

MangoSplit · 27/03/2017 11:55

I also had a very satisfying conversation with a male friend this weekend. My DH said that he had never before seen this friend change his viewpoint so much from its starting point during the course of a conversation! (Usually this friend is very good at arguing his point.) Smile

WoodPigeonInFlight · 27/03/2017 09:03

I peak transed my mum this weekend

Grin
Nellooo · 26/03/2017 22:23

Roquefort -

Thanks for that link. It's absolutely terrible that sexual orientation and gender identity are conflated like this. They are entirely different things!

One is about who you ARE (or who you think you are, or who you imagine you want to be) and one is about who you what to be WITH - how is this simple distinction not clear? Shock

venusinscorpio · 26/03/2017 21:56

That's brilliant. I peak transed my mum this weekend. We had a massive row about this subject a few months back as she didn't like how angry I was getting about it but she agrees with me now.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 26/03/2017 21:37

I was talking to a male friend about it all tonight. He didn't see how it could be that bad because men would never get away with walking into women's changing rooms etc...

We covered Danielle, the implications of self-declaration and the CPS schools pack. I could literally see the pennies dropping. It was very satisfying.

RoquefortMonster · 26/03/2017 17:55

The trans lobby has a vested interest in promoting non psychological treatment, and politically they have successfully worked to have it declassified as a mental health condition

I posted this link on the references thread, but it seems quite relevant here:

www.rcgp.org.uk/news/2017/january/uk-organisations-unite-against-conversion-therapy.aspx

This is where the medical professionals stand, the statement says such things as:

"Sexual orientations and gender identities are not mental health disorders, although exclusion, stigma and prejudice may precipitate mental health issues for any person subjected to these abuses. Anyone accessing therapeutic help should be able to do so without fear of judgement or the threat of being pressured to change a fundamental aspect of who they are.”

This statement seems perfectly reasonable regarding sexual orientation, but with regard to gender identity it doesn't make sense: surely one fundamental aspect of who you are is your body, and by not counselling people to come to terms with the body they have, and thereby encouraging them to have medical interventions, they are being pressured to change a fundamental aspect of who they are.

user1487175389 · 25/03/2017 07:16

I wouldn't even bother trying to talk to my MP because he's a textbook brocialist and possibly the most arrogant man I've ever met in my life.

CocoaLeaves · 25/03/2017 07:06

I think, unrelated to PIE, there was a legitimate argument about lowering the age of consent for homosexual acts to be in line with the age of consent to heterosexual acts in the 1970s. On the darker side, however, there were people then, as now, who argue that the age of consent is arbitrary, because it is different in different countries and has changed over time and hi-jacked that argument for the removal of the age of consent.

The connection would be what? That the age of consent for medical procedures is 16. Thing is parents can make decisions before that, but usually in cases of clinical need it is obvious and there are agreed medical guidelines. So, the issue is who is driving the definition of clinical need here, where drugs are being given before age 16?

The second connection is more complex and harder to argue because it is about erasing sex (literally) and creating gender as the biological marker (which is a social construct, because what it means changes over time and place). Gender does not have any age of consent attached to it, because boys and girls have a set of socially constructed ideas around them from birth. However, children can choose to say no to those stereotypes and be their own person. Why does this lead to changing their bodies?

CocoaLeaves · 25/03/2017 06:51

I am aware of PIE in the 1970s, yes.

user1487175389 · 24/03/2017 23:16

I'm in. Whoever said about the gender related questions trans supporters can never seem to answer. Yy to this.