Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

I'm wondering if the 'a woman is anyone who says they are' brigade will turn on India.

I can't imagine how on earth that debate will go down.

Plus how are we supposed to tell a bloke in a dress with make-up from a transwomen? I'm going to tweet her that question.

India says she is worried about women like her. What about women in general, the ones who don't require a trip to the hospital, because they are born female?

Plus how are we supposed to tell a bloke in a dress with make-up from a transwomen? Genuine question. In the nicest possible way, I have been sat at tables next to people I assumed were transwomen. How do I know if they were out of the day cross-dressing or transitioning or transitioned? The point is I would have no idea without asking. Which legally I cannot do. Would I have been uncomfortable in the bathroom - yes, afraid so.

India is no more a woman than a transvestite is. The trans community was delighted that all these people were coming out as it leant credence to their narrative. They were welcomed with open arms to the bandwagon.

Now the bandwagon is in danger of tipping over because the vast majority of transwomen have a fetish and people like India are panicking that their assertion is going to look dodgy to even the most inclusive of people.

India is worried that having been given an inch, she can now no longer take a mile.

Her new found stance is in insidious and clever. It's also dangerous.

I suspect she has thought long and hard about that Jenny Murray interview. Her reaction to it was that Jenny Murray is a dinosaur, ignorant and should be sacked. She was also in dire need of a makeover, according to India.

Despite Jenni Murray talking explicitly about India ( not a transvestite, not someone else) India has now decided that she will rewrite history (for the second time) and make out that Jenni was not talking about people like her at all. And therefore she may have a point.

If anyone thinks there is no internal, wholesale delusion going on, this must prove the point.

This
Datun "India is deliberately moving the goalposts. She can see how idiotic some of the trans-activist rhetoric is and how the fetishisits are being recognised and she is trying desperately to distance herself from it. Despite having spouted it constantly.

She is seeing which way the wind is blowing due to the idiocy of the trans ideology (which she has fully supported) and is now trying to grade men into real women (presumably like her) and fake women, like anyone who commits a crime.

It's self serving hypocrisy at its highest degree".

India is deliberately moving the goalposts. She can see how idiotic some of the trans-activist rhetoric is and how the fetishisits are being recognised and she is trying desperately to distance herself from it. Despite having spouted it constantly.

She is seeing which way the wind is blowing due to the idiocy of the trans ideology (which she has fully supported) and is now trying to grade men into real women (presumably like her) and fake women, like anyone who commits a crime.

It's self serving hypocrisy at its highest degree.

Am I fuck being goady, it was real questions

So because one out a bunch of abusive tra's who violate boundaries and assume their rights trump ours dies this considerately to a lesser degree that's a good thing? Isn't half of what everyone talks about on these threads how everyone gives an inch with pronouns & tw who 'pass' & the whole 'gender spetrum' take a mile because of it? There's plenty in the article about how transvestites get in the way of real tw rights and needs and makes their lives difficult. Doesn't seem very women orientated at all. Just awfully me me me of India.

No of course not. Don't be goady and have a .

I do think that it's the first time I've seen a transactivist recognise that the lack of an objective measure poses risks. And it's not a huge leap from accepting that, to saying that of course there isn't an objective measurement that can differentiate between a 'real' transwomen and a 'fake' transwomen (her ideas, not mine). Now they'd never say that, or even approach that, but even the fact that someone like India Willoughby's is voicing concerns over the acceptance of men into safe spaces based on 'feelz' on the day is a step I've not seen before, and frankly against this onslaught I'm pleased to see any semblance of sense amongst the rubbish.

You agree with her that gg & jm are spewing hate speach (paraphrasing) & that transvestites are merely 'what' not people who, or something human?

I thought it was an awful article. All us tw are real women so we should get in the ladies & anyone else shdn't. But she still asserts that transioned tw are the same as women. Which is the start of the problem

Evening twittters. I'm still plugging away with the re-tweets, I've got 50 followers now with my radfem account I'm quite proud . Just wanted to flag India Willoughby's new article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/03/31/india-willoughby-unless-you-are-transitioning-stay-out-the-ladies/amp/

Getting a flaming on twitter, but it's the first time I've come close to agreeing and thought it was interesting that someone relatively high-profile is voicing these concerns...

Please accept my humble and truly sincere apologies for bringing Jim Sillars onto a trans thread.

It's a step too far.

And now Jim Sillars, a man whose whole life has been dedicated to Scottish independence, has stated he won't vote yes if it means staying in the EU because he hates the EU so much.

My head is spinning like the blooming Excorcist :)

I agree Morris. I have always been left wing but I'm not up for ticking boxes in someone else's ideology - I can think for myself and if that means having odd bedfellows in specific issues, sofuckit

It's all gone very meta hasn't it. I'm gender critical, consider myself a liberal but I'm a Scot who doesn't want Scottish Independence.

I spend my whole life nodding in agreement with people I'm supposed to despise.

And I can't admit to any of it on Facebook. If my friends knew I was gender critical and pro union I might as well change my name to Donald Trump and be done with it.

Wood, if you're still reading

Take care wood

Thank you so much CoolJazz and you kind remainers for your words.

I think what was most upsetting for me is that I had to psyche myself up to go on Twitter, and was wary of getting abuse from transactivists. Of course some of the tweets retweeted by terfisaslur and others are pretty dreadful but I was expecting to see tweets like that. I was just was totally unprepared for insults directed at me (in a general sense, as in at all leave voters) from women I was following specifically because they are gender critical.

I was probably very naive, but given the nastiness of some of the tweets sent to women on Twitter, it didn't cross my mind that gen crit women would start tweeting or retweeting nasty insults at other people.

Anyway, I feel much better to know I am not the only gen crit leave voting liberal alive, CoolJazz and to hear that there are at least some gen crit remain voting women who don't assume I am a despicable racist fool, venus and mercy.

I'm going to take a break from MN and Twitter for a while, as although I don't feel as upset or angry, I am just finding the level of vitriol about Brexit at the moment really depressing and it's not doing my faith in humanity or my state of mind any good. What really depresses me is the inability of so many people to extrapolate from one scenario to another, or just comprehend that people can have different views on some issues, but still be good, decent people, possibly even allies. It's all a bit of a mess. It seems like you have to approach everyone with such a level of wariness and arm yourself against attack, and at the moment I just don't feel up to it. Social media purdah for me

Off topic, but a 52/48 vote in a non-binding referendum won by a side that promised having cake and eating it doesn't mean we just have to 'get on with' leaving the EU. Long road to go, and things'll change when it becomes clear just how self-sabotaging it is.

I don't think leave voters are dumb. I do think they were sold a pup.

Just seen this. WEP are coming back for another webchat.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2890099-Webchat-with-Catherine-Mayer-author-and-co-founder-of-the-Womens-Equality-Party-Thursday-30-March-1-2pm

Weirdly my gran is that age and never wears a skirt, has short hair and wears unisex support shoes. What makes this bloke a 'woman'? The skirt, fake boobs and nylon tights? None of these he is a man who is cross dressing, cross dressing is fine though odd but aren't we all varying degrees of odd. however is he going to be treated at a a female only NHS ward when the time comes? Share a room with a woman in a care home?His wants being more important than the needs of dozens of elderly and vulnerable women.

Cross dress by all means but stay out of women only spaces. They are female spaces to protect women. No dicks please.