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Original poster

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

767 replies

dorade · 09/03/2017 10:13

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

  1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.
  1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.
  1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

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Datun · 04/04/2017 12:41

And for what it's worth I don't think many women transitioning to men have bottom surgery. They might have a double mastectomy, but I don't think many of them go on to have the rest.

CoolJazz · 04/04/2017 12:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 04/04/2017 12:39

From what I have read (and admit I don't drill down too deeply because it's rather disquieting) the depth of the 'aperture' is a about 2 inches. Also there is no 'give' or elasticity like in a normal vagina.

They can retain some of their penile sensitivity inside. As the opening comes to a dead-end, it needs constant cleaning, sometimes hair grows inside, there is no natural flora and fauna so the odour is very 'different'. And it will close if it's not frequently dilated. There is no clitorus.

Even writing that is making me feel uncomfortable, because it feels as though it is very taboo to even talk about it.

But if any of this is not flatly laid out on the table in front of parents helping their male children to transition, that's a scandal waiting to happen.

And yes, I think the dating pool for post operative transwoman is incredibly limited.

CakesAreBiscuitsToo · 04/04/2017 12:13

I agree, charlie plus post surgery I would imagine that pain is quite high - the healing takes a very long time. I absolutely cannot imagine that the "orgasm" that cooljazz describes actually happened. It sounds like the usual fetisishism of a "vagina" to me.

CharlieSierra · 04/04/2017 11:58

I don't think that they can possibly 'work' the same way. They cannot create a penis which is capable of natural erections, and even if by leaving sensitive penile tissue in place in a fashioned neovagina, this couldn't create a female orgasm deep in the pelvis as the anatomy is different.

CoolJazz · 04/04/2017 08:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoolJazz · 04/04/2017 08:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 03/04/2017 19:04

CharlieSierra

I know, I think it's a weird one too.

From what I can gather, autogynephilia can take such an extreme hold that the desire to be penetrated 'as a woman' overrides almost everything else.

They sometimes go on to say that actually their compulsion lessens somewhat after surgery, presumably due to the hormone change.

But when you read some of the pre-op narratives, that desire to go through as much of a woman's experience as possible is massive. And it doesn't stop at sex, the dream to be pregnant, menstruate etc, it's the whole shebang. All underpinned by arousal.

I disagree profoundly with all the misogynistic bullshit attached to the trans-ideology, but having thoughts like that 24/7 sounds bloody grim.

Another reason why treatment should be less physical and more psychological, in my opinion.

CharlieSierra · 03/04/2017 18:24

I'm completely flummoxed by who these fake vaginas are intended to be penetrated by. The owners are male, so not straight men or lesbians. They don't have a penis any more, so not gay men or straight women. Confused

Nellooo · 03/04/2017 15:15

"Self lubricating" is a sneer aimed at colouring the natural functioning of a woman's anatomy as gross or icky and a way of discrediting any kind of superiority that real women with female anatomy have over "women" with willies or those with surgically hollowed out pelvis holes.

That list of terms makes me livid dementedcommuter.

CocoaLeaves · 03/04/2017 15:00

Random but I was in M&S and they had a stand with fill-ins for bras and back extenders. These are not intended for women, are they? I mean, are there women who need to extend the backs of bras, or is it for the more broad-shouldered type (i.e. men). And can't women just buy padded bras?

I was stood there with teenage DD, it was right at the counter, and I was a bit like Hmm.

Datun · 03/04/2017 13:46

dementedcommuter

I completely agree. I once made the mistake of thinking I needed to inform myself about what actually happens during surgery and thereafter.

Apart from all the mechanics required after surgery to keep the neovagina, let's call it 'operational', the entire issue is sex obsessed.

The testimonials on line and the realities are so far removed it's highly disturbing to read.

The boasting about the neo-vaginas, that they're better than natal vaginas, how they're always ready for sex, etc, makes a quite a gut-churning mockery of what a vagina actually is and does, and only serves to highlight, yet again, that the vast majority of these men see women, and their anatomy as nothing more than something to be penetrated.

dementedcommuter · 03/04/2017 13:00

Regardless of audience the meaning is clear, we are being portrayed as less human than trans women.

Why do they have vaginas, and not non self lubricating front holes? Surely they should be referred to vaginas and neovaginas. No trans have more right to use the word vagina than we do. I'm livid. It's all very 1984.

Words are powerful.

Datun · 03/04/2017 12:37

dementedcommuter

Although that was written for the trans community, (I don't think it was written specifically for everybody), it is the thin edge of the wedge, I agree.

And it just goes to show how female anatomy is not really a transwoman's strong suit, as the urethra is in front of the vagina. Thereby making that the 'front hole' (ugh).

As for a man's penis being a strap on. This is aimed at lesbians. Completely missing the point, as the penis is attached to the man, it doesn't 'strap on' anything. It's another way of coercing lesbians into sex. Because of course men cannot envisage any kind of sex that doesn't involve a penis of some description - surely the world would end.

dementedcommuter · 03/04/2017 11:28

Not sure if you have seen this. Only trans women have vaginas, the rest of us have self lubricating front holes apparently. This is so offensive to me as a women and a human bring.

Surely it's a joke and not really been posted by @hrc?

If it has, this is nothing less than dehumanisation of a sex class.

"AIBU to object to being referred to as a self lubricating front hole". If anyone's brave enough. Shall we refer to men as self sperm making ejaculators? Fuck this shit.

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem
WobblyLegs5 · 03/04/2017 09:34

Maybe in a few weeks Iw will do another article about how she was manipulated and taken in by the bad feminists and that's why people should focus on that big bad and leave poor helpless trans people alone

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 03/04/2017 09:27

India's article is in direct contradiction to Stonewall's "trans umbrella covers EVERYBODY" philosophy.

Will there be war? Will the movement eat itself?

Oh God I HOPE so.....

cjdamoo · 03/04/2017 08:58

Loving The Feminism2017 hashtag on twitter atm.

Datun · 02/04/2017 19:11

AnotherQuoll

Personally I think it will only serve to highlight the dodgy underbelly. And as there is no way of telling one from the other...

AnotherQuoll · 02/04/2017 18:05

I wonder if Willoughby's whinge will assist the rifts between transsexuals, transgenders and transtrenders?

Terfinator · 02/04/2017 13:33

Has this been posted yet? Grin

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem
IAmAmy · 02/04/2017 13:19

Indeed. I thought this "no platforming" trend was ridiculous enough anyway, but to demand someone not be allowed to speak simply for pointing out that someone who's "transitioned to being a woman" didn't grow up with the experiences of being a girl would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 02/04/2017 12:48

Maybe they'll want to no-platform India next. Imagine the outrage.

IAmAmy · 02/04/2017 12:22

Not sure if this is the correct thread but I see some students at Oxford University are calling for Jenni Murray to be "no platformed" from a literary festival today: www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/oxford-students-try-to-gag-jenni-murray-as-transphobic-5l9mb0k7s

Datun · 01/04/2017 13:35

India is pissed off that men she doesn't believe are women are appropriating her struggle and experience.

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