Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

Oh dear - seems I've upset Bev too.

Its always difficult when facts get in the way of a good argument.

Blimey cooljazz we're not in the playground!

Your post illustrates the level of discourse that I refer to above and might be enough to persuade me stay! 😎

Keep reading folks. People show their true colours when they are under pressure. 😉

Ignore the attempt at derailing, Iris has tried this on most trans/gender self ID threads and isn't likely to stop their tactics now if people continue to engage.

I've posted in support of your Caroline Flint web chat suggestion, CoolJazz. A Twitter thread would be a good idea as proposed by a PP - it could become a directory of who to follow and also highlight any particularly prolific dangerous/vile/threatening Twitter accounts so that we could be forewarned about who is likely to turn nasty.

So you speak for a diverse minority now?

Nope. They have spoken for themselves. Categorically.

www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM

I have posted as much as I am willing to on this thread. It really is a waste of my time to continue given the level of discourse. Hopefully some will read what I have posted and have a clearer idea of the issues😀

I will define gender for you, it's a hyrarchy impossed on females by the patriarchy

There are numerous examples that have already happened in other countries who have passed this bill to show how rights of gender identity trample over the rights of females, including women being raped and murdered. That are linked on the other thread iris, and you ignored those examples then.

Thanks Bev.

Its nice to see the standard of response is as high as the standard of knowledge, understanding and courtesy in these threads. 😉

Datun Name one what? Your question, like so much in these threads is unclear.😀

I'm quite secure in my knowledge of disorders thanks Bev.
Whilst you are correct in that most Turner's identify as female and most Klinefelter's identify as male it is not always the case.
I notice that you ignore the other disorders and my point about physical abnormalities 😉😄

So you speak for a diverse minority now? On what basis? From the position of the privilege of having a gender identity that is consistent with your sex chromosomes.
And repeatedly saying gender is binary does not change the facts.
Given the complexities of chromosome and physical abnormalities and of what constitutes femininity and masculinity how do you define gender?
If only it was as simple as some believe - has a penis is a bloke, has a uterus and ovaries and a vagina is a woman. But as I ahve shown above it just ain't so. 😉

Protecting the rights of one group - those who are trans - does not entail reducing the rights of another - women.

Name one.

Place marking with interest as keen to support some concerted action.

Please ignore anyone who tries to conflate transgenderism with being intersex. Many intersex people have requested that TRAs stop doing so as they feel their biological makeup is irrelevant to the debate and they resent being used to further a cause they do not believe in. The vast, vast majority of intersex people are not transgender. Anyone who continues to treat the two states as linked is being deliberately obtuse, rude and lacking in empathy.

There also seems to be a belief that there are many, many trans people who are just waiting to 'invade female toilets and changing rooms' so that they can wave their penises around and to dominate women's spaces and women's organisations etc.
This is all part of a familiar narrative of demonisation and the kinds of things that are being posted in these threads are from the very same narrative of racism and homophobia.
Protecting the rights of one group - those who are trans - does not entail reducing the rights of another - women. It is a tragedy that we are being divided as a community by this issue.
Focus on fighting for the equality of all and justice for all rather than attacking other victims of bigotry and oppression.

As you can see the area of sex recognition and gender identity is very complex.

Ridiculous. Sex is a binary - TWO. Even intersex uses that binary.

And Iris The intersex society in this country have repeatedly asked people to not include them in transgender debates. GIRES tried to pressure them into a collaboration, which they flatly refused.

It is utterly disrespectful to intersex people to try and co-opt them to endorse the transgender ideology. They have asked repeatedly that you don't do it.

Can we all agree not to be sidetracked? Iris has posted on several thread with intntion of engaging or dabate and while she has no idea what a woman is

I'm less charitable. It reads to me like the poster known as Iris is simply trying to sidetrack. ...

I think it is important to focus on doing something re this bill and the issue writ large.

*but not bit.

Hi Bev,

A woman is - well its complicated - bit that's not an answer that many accept. The existence of chromosomal and physical abnormalities means that we have to accept that a woman is someone who identifies as such.

If we try and define it any other way then we end up telling people who have abnormal sex chromosomes that they are either of the gender with which they don't identify or are somehow 'intersex' and cannot be categorised - which causes all sorts of problems.

The incidence of these abnormalities is surprisingly common: "The most common sex chromosome aneuploidies are 45,X (Turner syndrome); 47,XXY (Klinefelter syndrome); 47,XYY (XYY syndrome); and 47,XXX, which have birth frequencies of approximately 1 in 2500, 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000, 1 in 850 to 1 in 3000, and 1 in 1000, respectively." From: www.uptodate.com/contents/sex-chromosome-abnormalities

Those who are fortunate enought to have a gender identity which is consistent with our chromosomes and/or don't have sex chromosome abnormalities often find it difficult to understand or empathise with those who don't.

The other issue with using chromosomal or physical standards is that people are born with genital and reporductive system abnormalities. For example a female may be born with a large clitoris and be wrongly identified as male at birth. Others are born without a uterus or without ovaries or without a vagina. A chromosomally normal male may be born without a functioning penis and/or testicles. Others are born with a micropenis which is mistaken for a clitoris and the boy registered as a girl.

As you can see the area of sex recognition and gender identity is very complex. So..... a woman is someone is someone who feels that they are female. For this to be recognised by wider society the person must satisfy the standards of the current legislation. See my earlier posts for clarification on that. 😀

Frankly, by this point, I'd settle for labelling loos as 'Dicks' and 'Non-dicks'.