Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

BirdyBlue I said similar, also asked why that meant we needed to centre everything on trans rights and if it negated rape culture, rampant misogyny etc, and was told that we "need to be aware of our cis privilege" and that all these things are worse for trans women so we need to focus on them not "minor middle class cis concerns". I'm very sorry to read of the sexual assault you suffered. That's exactly the kind of thing which makes me enraged about all this. I don't feel very privileged to be quite obviously a "cis female" when I'm being harassed in the street by men (for being a "cis female"). It's infuriating.

Sorry, that should be "No exposure of male genitalia EVER in female spaces."

I didn't want to be a girl/women either when I was a teen, not because I "felt" like a man but because it was hard being a women and I didn't see any alternatives to suffering through it. None of that is because of my gender but because of the patriarchal system we live in

Instead of teaching girls that they must accept males in female toilets teach our boys tolerance in accepting other males who have chosen not to conform to gender stereotypes in the male toilets (and do them for hate crime if they don't accept them). If male toilets are unsafe for gender nonconforming males we need to make them safer not send them to the female toilets
This

A few things:

1. The most important thing we can do is to change other people's minds, one at a time. One thing which might be useful might be a playbook that people could dip into and use as a resource and source of suggestions and advice. Good links and URLs and research studies. Some suggestions on what phrases are good to use and which can end up alienating people and turning people off.

1. "Limited focus--broad base of support" needs to be the golden rule here. No matter how much any of us might care about refugees, marine pollution, support for learning disabilities, racism, etc. etc. I think the cause will remain simpler and clearer here if we can just focus on this core issue, and do not let it become a laundry-list of everything else we care about. A narrow focus will mean a much broader base of public support.

By the same token, this should not become "Let's abolish gender and convert everyone to radical feminism!" That's utopian and is not going to happen. Keep it simple and achievable.

1. A march would be great at some point (those who have to hide their identity could use masks--let's face it, it's been done in marches before!). I think we need to wait till there is a greater critical mass of support, however. And... again, hate to say it, but we may need to wait for more gay men to start getting fed up with this shit (from what I have seen on Datalounge and other places, this is already happening but has taken longer to get started than among gay women). Because a march with guys in it will be in a safer position if the TRAs turn up and behave in a genuinely scary manner. Can we reach out to more gay men? Speed up the waking-up process?

1. There needs to be a short, sharp list of concrete suggestions. Here are a few:

a) Get rid of the stupid "gender fluidity" shit and require that to use women's spaces transwomen MUST be passing some fairly strict criteria. Having this rule ALONE would do an awful lot to keep out many of the part-time cross-dressing opportunists.

b) No exposure of male genitalia EVER in public spaces. There needs to be rules about this. You flash a dick, you are out of the ladies' changing room, period. TW with intact MG need to either be extremely discreet or find gender-neutral facilities to use.

c) More gender neutral facilities, which would help out a lot of people as well as providing a safe place for TW who do not feel that they can completely avoid showing male genitalia.

d) We need an official public policy statement that is evidence based about children and non gender conformity--ie, which states clearly that most children who are GNC grow up to be gay not trans provided they are not tracked into trans-dom from an early age and then put on blockers. Gender identity therapists must be free to use non-affirmative approaches when dealing with children and this should NEVER fall under laws which criminalize gay conversation therapy.

e) All highly-sensitive female-only situationsrefuges, prisons, rape crisis centers, female HCPs for those requesting themneed to be able to refuse or segregate TW based on their own free choice.

@IAmAmy it's frustrating as I then asked "since when does suffering have a hierarchy?" and got a stupid comment about privilege. I didn't feel special privilege when I was sexually assaulted by a man. I didn't feel special privilege when as a teen I was bullied for not wanting to my nails or be girly. I didn't feel privilege when the boys in my economics class decided that the 3 girls in the class didn't belong and tried to have us moved to a different class as they didn't think we were keeping up with them. I gave up on maths after being told time and time again it was for boys. No special privilege there either.

I don't seriously mean it of course. We have had the battle, why should we fight it again. It's just this problem is so invisible to the ejaculators and I think it needs to be highlighted.

I've heard that said many times too Charlotta, it grates on me no end.

Lets contact the BMA to ensure they know they are not allowed to say men with prostrate cancer only people with prostrate cancer. If the trans men are not causing the same issues as the trans women lets do it for them.

Or do we let them get on with it and then just fight for new rights as wombers or XXs when womens rights as we know them disappear. We could redefine ourselves based on unassailable biology.

along with 'cis' females are privileged because we identify as the same sex as our chromosomes do. Ah the privilege of being the female sex.

Lets take this fight to the men.

I agree with this but in a different way. Educate our male children to challenge gender, not to blindly accept that they have to fit into masculine stereotypes and look down on those who don't.

Instead of teaching girls that they must accept males in female toilets teach our boys tolerance in accepting other males who have chosen not to conform to gender stereotypes in the male toilets (and do them for hate crime if they don't accept them). If male toilets are unsafe for gender nonconforming males we need to make them safer not send them to the female toilets.

I had this chat with a friend and she's firmly on the "trans" right trumps all as they "suffer" more

Unfortunately this has been my general experience when I used to try to discuss this, as well as anyone who doesn't agree blindly that "transwomen are women" is a "transphobe". I'm somewhat ashamed to admit I don't voice what I really think about this now to most people, other than two of my closest friends one of whom thankfully firmly agrees with me (and would do with the posts on here).

Agreed Scissorsisters. Happy to identify as male from now on.

I am thinking trans men [who haven't had gender reassignment surgery] will not feel comfortable in men's toilets/changing rooms/feel happy to give blowjobs. Wish we could involve transmen more in this conversation, as well as lesbians who feel targeted by the transphobia accusation if they don't want to have sex with someone with a penis.

Today I've woken up feeling like a man. It's triggering to know that some men think that only men have erections and ejaculate sperm. I would like sex education in schools to address this. I'm very upset. I also think we should legally only be able to say people who ejaculate. Are you with me on this. Discussing their dicks, balls and semen is so fucking exclusionary to me as a real man, the bigoted fuckers who do they think they are.

My feelings are so hurt, I'm not sure I can cope. It's probably the fault of you WIMMIM somehow as ultimately it always is.

Lets take this fight to the men. Why are everyday feminism telling women to be inclusionary about periods but not about male ejaculation. Lets bombard people with requests to stop saying prostrate is a male issue, lets call them out and make this an issue men experience too. Things would change fast.

I'm following with interest and totally support the idea.

I am plucking up the courage to be more vocal, but to be honest am only coming out the other end of a horrid few years of debilitating anxiety and depression (ironically a lot, if not all, of which was caused by men), and the thought of being branded a bigot or transphobe by people I think of as friends scares me.

I really need a local ally, but considering how fearful we all are of speaking out I don't hold out much hope of finding one.

marking place. Feel the CPS pack for schools needs challenging immediately. Any journalists willing to stick out their neck and take up the cause? [Jenni Murray's appalling treatment notwithstanding]

I like the simplicity of 'XX'

I named changed to post as it's a difficult topic full of nutters from elsewhere looking in.

Im so in. I'm appalled by this issue.

I had this chat with a friend and she's firmly on the "trans" right trumps all as they "suffer" more but then couldn't tell me why it's right that women's sports are being taken over by men, etc. The bathroom thing is a bit of a loaded mine of a argument. I got in trouble at work recently as a MAN has decided he is trans women and because of it all women's bathrooms are gender neutral. I said why not make all bathroom gender neutral and apparently the cost of having to re furb would be too much. Fucking joke.

Also to all those who say that it's a myth that self identification will lead to people temporarily choosing to be a women/man for time period needs to come to my office as the trans person above is a man sometimes and a women other times (splits the week). Another fucking joke. Plus. Because of this we all had to sit through "trans training". I boycotted.

My only concern with "wombers" or similar is that it might alienate or upset women who otherwise generally feel the same way about gender self-ID etc as we do here but who have had hysterectomies, especially for medical reasons.

I appreciate I may be overthinking this though.

...I was using intersex to illustrate the complexities of gender identity.

For any lurkers still not sure and because I'm sick to death of the way intersex people are being used.

"We are not happy with the recent tendency of some trans groups/people to promote transgender as an umbrella term to encompass, for example, transsexuality, transvestitism and intersex."

"We are constantly trying to get away from the idea that intersex is necessarily to do with gender identity, a notion that others (including the press/media) like to impose on us."

I like the idea of wombers or womben

Yes, I think concentrating on Caroline Flint at the moment is the way to go. I see this initial phase for us as building a network of allies and creating a coherent consistent message.

Although at some point down the line I would love a webchat with Maria Miller. Although I'd probably come out of it banned.