Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

Thanks BevGoldbergsSister I'll take a look.

And I know what you mean about the anger overriding the anxiety - I am almost there, but am terrified of undoing all the hard work that I (and therapists/family etc.) have done.

Oh yes agree as an addition

General neutral effectively identifies people as that, where as unisex is further anyone (and females would most definately use also, females ques too long!)

They would need to be safer/more private/individual cubicles. But would be helpful first other scenarios also, a dad who doesn't want to take his 7 year old daughter into the males to see other mens penis' etc. And (I know not to bring them into the actual debate) but surely this suits the small percentage who are intersex. Or even just anyone with digestuve medical cobditions who isn't comfortable using disabled toilets etc

Yes please LumelaMme - please post.

Afraid not Thisisouting - I'm in the East, shame :(

MeMyself1.

I'm happy to go with unisex, to emphasise sex over gender, if it is explicitly understood that it is not a replacement, but an addition. Otherwise it's just the same as letting everyone in.

cuppa I'm the same with anxiety I'm in the north west if that's near you?

Weirdly my anger over this is overriding my anxiety.

Yes - we need to be clear about the distinction between the terms 'sex' and 'gender' - one is a biological reality upon which structural inequality is based and gender is a recent (1950s) sociological term for 'sex role stereotypes/norms'.
I think it's important that we are seen as defending 'our sex' rather than getting too tied up in 'gender' discussions ....

I'm slightly concerned about the use of unisex and/or gender neutral.

Unisex as the connotation that any one of either sex can use it. Gender neutral has the connotation of anyone who thinks they're a special bloody snowflake - which I quite like because of course gender is bollocks and this shows it up.

However, I would only want either of those two options if they were an addition, not a replacement for women's spaces.

Should have said for use by any human being, regardless of chromosones, genetalia etc.

Yes unisex, or male/female.

I haven't RTFT, but I saw requests upthread for a template letter. I have already written to my MP. Anybody who would like to is welcome to take a look at what I said. My letter is not brilliant, it was written in a hurry, but it least it gives you a start.

I'll post it on the thread if you'd like me to.

Unisex is fine surely - for use by anyone of any biological sex, including intersex. Using the word gender is the problem.

Right I've just bought a ticket to an event with Jess Phillips for weds 29th in central London. Shall I ask her to define what a woman is? Does anyone want to come with me?

I had a good look at the Women In Sport charity's website yesterday to see if they had any statement with regards to trans women competing alongside women - they didn't. Do you think it's a good idea to contact them and ask? I know it is only one facet of the issue, and I suspect they want to remain impartial, but gotta start somewhere I guess.

Isn't the 'cis' privilege & males privilage describing different things though?

Male privilage being a social thing where males are socialised to put themselves forward more, speak up louder etc & socially, educationally, financially are advantaged because of it.

Where are 'cis' privilege, or the lack of it, is a psychological thing? As in it must be psychologicaly very challenging to deal with feeling like you are in the wrong body, but that is an individual, internal difficulty rather than a socially constructed one- isn't this how to counter those claims?

Any mtt may have had a huge personal struggle but up until the point they transition they have still socially experienced male privilage.

I appreciate that mtt are often targets of violent crime (as welll as the perpetrators) but there must be other factirs involved also- sex work for example- but how much actual stigma is there out? YArdley says transphobia is mostly a myth. It's certainly cool and trendy with anyone young. My Twitter feed is full of very left learning American actors etc who make very interesting, intelligent points on everything else yet show blanket support for gender self identification. Where is all the social disadvantage for those who are trans? (As opposed to the psychological disadvantage)

I'm definitely in. I've just read the thread and there are some excellent points made. So glad it's not just me worried about this. I've just emailed my kids' head teacher to find out what the school teaches about trans issues and I plan to take action if it is harmful.

I also emailed my MP and got a positive response.

Is it worth reaching out to groups like the WI, women's advocacy groups, Refuge etc?

Just saw this article - it's long (and a bit academic) but has lots of good points and references/links!
www.feministcurrent.com/2017/03/10/invisible-woman-gender-identity-age-neoliberalism/

Can we agree to stick to the term "unisex" when that's what we're talking about, rather than "gender neutral"?

sorry leaves us.

yes - there is an inherent assumption that men can't change [they are victim to their 'sex'] and therefore male public spaces cannot be made safer - and so of course all the responsibility falls to biological women, even when this leads us incredibly vulnerable/the whole system open to abuse and to predators.

"If male toilets are unsafe for gender nonconforming males we need to make them safer not send them to the female toilets"

Totally agree in principle and as a long-term aim.

But we can't wave a magic wand and make male toilets completely safe.

If we are talking about "practical suggestions to propose right now," then more gender-neutral spaces are essential if we want to either stop TW using female spaces, or at least tighten up the criteria.