Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

I went to some training a bit like that a while ago, the training was all about transgender issues and conducted by a trans women. I was asked the same question and answered that sex was a biological fact and gender was socially constructed. Nothing was said about that being right or wrong, she just moved on to the next thing. Nobody else had answered so there was no discussion about the difference.

Report from the chalk face ...

I did some training today which included stuff on discrimination and the EA.

The trainer wrote gender/gender reassignment as one of the 9 protected characteristics. I bit my tongue and didn't mention that 'gender' on its own is not a protected characteristic (yet) or anything about Maria Miller's bill because I would have got angry and I like my job.

He also asked the group what the difference between sex and gender was. Everyone stared at him blankly for a minute and then I said gender is how you identify and sex is your actual body, which was the right answer, apparently. It's not quite what I wanted to say (because I like my job) but it felt positive that sex was still being acknowledged at all and not conflated with gender.

Sorry I meant to say parents are told that puberty blockers are reversible, not irreversible. This what Justine Greening believes too.

Whoever mentioned court challenge- what about Facebook/twitter etc for allowing die terfs/rape terfs etc? Or esty for the badges mentioned on the other post? Or the transwomen posting photos in women's toilets 'just to piss them off' & encouraging others to do so? Angelica perditta?? I think was the last one I saw doing so (surname might be wrong I could check) or what about some of the v evil stuff on you tube? Claiming lesbians should be raped if they don't have sex with males?

Sure the MPs won't think you mean NewImprovedAllMaleWomen, though, CoolJazz?

It's a real problem. I am sure much of the information is supportive of diversity and promotes anti-bullying. But it is promoting a belief system (if you say you are trans then you are trans for good, pink brain, blue brain etc) that is not based on science. It may be creating transgendered young people, who certainly weren't 'born in the wrong body', but are experiencing identity problems and do need skilled objective help.
I expect every public and voluntary organisation uses the same sort of material. Which quotes flawed suicide statistics, tells parents puberty blockers are irreversible, and points parents towards Mermaids. Another one here:
www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/special-educational-needs/family/gender-dysphoria
It covers the possibility that the child isn't transgender but rapidly moves on to how to come out at school and using the right toilets, and that regretting change is rare - I don't think done with malicious or sinister intent but a powerful sort of evangelism dressed up as liberal tolerance. It's all pretty toxic as the young people involved are very vulnerable and do need kindness and support, not ridicule. They just don't need to be on a one way track to a single diagnosis.
Where does a school or parent go for independent advice? GP's have the same source of information. Probably social services too.
Is this something a journalist might be interested in? An academic study?

Stopmakingsense you make a really good point that the information distributed in schools is totally one-sided. Somehow, partisan groups such as GIRES and Gendered Intelligence have become the sole source of information for schools, and the transactivists have managed to more or less silence any debate on the issue by shouting transphobia.

Can we ever get back to the position that it's OK for a girl to be a tomboy, and also that it's OK for a boy to do 'girly' things? Thinking about it, the trans message that you have to fit into some sort of gender stereotype is the epitome of intolerance - a girl who is in some way 'boyish', or a boy who is a bit 'girly', must be eliminated.

Posted this on Jenni Murray thread too - rhere is a ruling about Lauren Jeska. BBC said she was a transgender athlete. Lauren Jeska jailed for Alexander Stadium stabbings
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

Yes! Was thinking this myself.

Perhaps someone could form a simple list of points that people might wish to have included in the debate on gender identity which would hopefully produce clear responses and explanations of how the conclusion was reached (with any scientific research to back it up if available).
E.g. A Concern over the recording of crime stats.
Risk of injury to women when heavier stronger T M to F players can play against them.
Restrictions to women's freedom of movement for personal or religious reasons due to T M to F entering formerly Female only spaces. E.g. Wards, changing rooms.
The Cost of changing e.g. Nhs databases with changed genders.
Request for debate on when and how children can commence treatment. Etc etc
As lay people it is too easy for any views to be sidetracked and answers quoting incorrect claims to be used to shut down debate (e.g. Accused of calling T M toF rapists because I said they should not be allowed in female toilets - likewise the false suicide risk claim stastistics concerning children).
One list of simple demands. The list could be easily emailed and printed or made into posters.
Perhaps the media would take up on that too.
If enough people ask the same questions it's harder for MPs to sidestep it.
Anyone think this is worth trying?

Just started a reference thread if anyone would like to add to it.

and stopmakingsense that document is appalling.

I cannot believe that there is some topsy turvey world where if a girl complains about getting undressed in front of a biological male, she is the one to have to go elsewhere!!

thanks Blistory and witching you both make very good points.

I've found that as intelligent women we are starting to have this conversation in RL too, mainly prompted by Jenni Murray. I think social media is important as well though- for the dissemination of information/views and challenging them. Without social media I wouldn't have found out about the gender equality bill.

I don't think challenging TRA has to be bullying, although it can be. A lot of depends on how one person perceives another though.

Fantastic post Witching.

Placemarking.

Brilliant posts - Blistory and Witching and others.

I think there is at least one really important strand which needs to be separate from an organised political campaign.

The CPS document and other information for schools etc, including learning module for GP's comes from GIRES, e.g.
www.allsortsyouth.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Trans-Inclusion-Schools-Toolkit.pdf (look out for the 2 scenarios telling girls to shut up about having a boy in their changing room or playing on their sports team)
This is a charity providing information and support, their aim is:
GIRES' overall aim is to improve substantially the environment in which gender non-conforming people live. GIRES upholds the right of all those who do not fit the typical boy/girl, man/woman tick boxes, including people who intend to change gender role completely and others whose gender identity is non-binary, to live proudly in a society that celebrates diversity.

Where do professionals, parents, schools, young people get access to information and training which aims to improve the environment for girls who do not conform do rigid stereotyopes and find themselves without a clear sense of identity? For boys and men who like pink and sparkles? An organisation whose promotes biology and being comfortable in your own body without the need to change your pronoun. Which organisations are running role play exercises in schools to reduce hate crime towards a boy with long hair and painted nails so he can safely use the boys' toilets? Who is running a help line and support groups for these children and their parents which isn't pro-transition like Mermaids? I know these organisations say that they support all gender non-conforming people, but in practice everyone gets lumped under the trans umbrella. People wanting help with transition are not disadvantaged in anyway and can still find the support they want.

A charity which positively promotes these values, could apply for grants like the other charities like Stonewall/Mermaids do, and engage patrons and champions, provide a platform for some fabulous role models. Promotes non-gendered parenting, clothes. Makes representations to select committees.

If there is a court challenge, what would be the grounds and who would pay?

Lots of great posts, rushing so posting quickly, but thank you.

I agree with a court challenge. The problem is if someone is legally a woman, it's a done deal.

People on social media are very much aware that the changes have happened. The general public isn't.

Does the general public know that the legal definition of the word woman has changed? Does the general public really know that women can't gather officially without the presence of men, if that man says so?

Transactivism is affecting relatively few people in a practical sense.

Jenni Murray is the one, lone mainstream broadcaster who has even questioned the ideology has not only received a huge backlash from abusive TRAs but a massive of support and publicity.

Most people who have come into contact negatively with the ideology utterly refute it but are too frightened to speak out. I don't think it will take much. The ideology does not stand up to scrutiny and as more people who are in a position to make the public aware of it question it, the more it is exposed.

I agree that the transing of children is a pivotal aspect and will produce outrage. But hand-in-hand with that, is the bottom line that men can become women, legally or otherwise.

If you eradicate that aspect, both culturally and legally, the ideology falls on it sword.

Bravo witching so well said and clearly thought out.

"Talking down a transactivist online isn't a victory but often just a form of bullying."

It is not bullying for women to stand up for themselves against these men. I think it is interesting to consider why some consider it "bullying" when a woman challenges men for holding the sexist belief they can become women. But no one in their right mind would call someone a bully if they challenged similar racist, or anti disabled beliefs. For example if someone white or abled bodied claimed to be asian or disabled. I think the answer to why this is misogyny.

"Doing it in real life brings it back within the social norms that we don't attack, we don't shout down and we don't threaten someone we know and are having a conversation with."

I have never seen any feminist woman opposed to this ideology attack or threaten anyone. This is all a one sided thing coming from men to women, as is always the case with supporters of MRA like ideologies. Women do however, have the right to be angry about what these men are doing, and I believe should be free to express that.

You need "a tone that doesn't alienate or attack"

Feminists have always known that to effectively fight for women's rights it is important to name the problem. The problem is mens violence and their feeling of entitlement to access to women, particularly sexual access. The fact is men as a group stick together to insure that they can get what they want, in this case it is liberal men. Men that claim to be women are men, they use the same tactics as their brethren use to control women and force us to do what they want.

Men have to be named as men as overtly as possible, they are not a different type of woman, they are a different (not that much though) type of man. If we don't do this the problem of mens violence to women and mens sense of entitlement to access to women cannot be named. Women are having to fight men for the right to define ourselves, this cannot be ignored or not spoken about just because these men may "feel" alienated or attacked. Men don't like being made aware of how they harm women, it is not a good enough reason though to fail to name the problem.

I do agree that we need to campaign in real life, as well as online. I also agree that these men need to be challenged in court, and we do need to raise public awareness, which should be where a lot of the focus of the campaign should go in my opinion.

"Transactivists took advantage of the growing backlash against feminist gains, against political correctness and piggybacked on this. They hijacked liberal language and spouted feminist theory and in doing so , appeared non threatening and familiar to those who want to be perceived as tolerant and open minded."

What has led to this whole mess is men being permitted into feminist groups. Men then influenced women's analysis of our own oppression as well as the strategy we use to fight it. This is why there is now very few real feminist groups and activism that challenges these mens ideas (demands). The result of this is women and the mainstream accepting liberal mens ideas as if they are actually feminist ideas e.g. porn is liberating, prostitution is empowering, the sexualising of girls is progressive and on and on. The ultimate of which is "transgenderism"; allowing men to enter the biological category of women, and so getting rid of female spaces, and completely eroding any boundaries we set in relation to men. Even our basic ability to talk about our own oppression at the hands of men is now being challenged by them.

"We don't always need to talk about transwomen but simply about women. The world still knows what that means. Take transwomen off the agenda and focus wholly on women, do it in a spirit of openness and honesty and love and leave them no place to speak up or to speak out."

We have to challenge the ideology that maintains men can become women, it is toxic to females and non conforming children, this cannot happen if we don't talk about these men and what they are doing. We have to stick to a firm biological definition of woman and man, some men do not conform to the male sex role, but they are still men, this is absolutely vital for a campaign to achieve anything of worth.

"If transwomen want to support these marches, groups and campaigns, great, if not, they show themselves for what they are."

Men are sometimes invited to participate in feminist marches, demonstrations, campaigns etc., though men need to respect it when they are women only. Where they do not ever belong is in feminists groups, only women should be forming a analysis of our own oppression and devising a strategy to combat it, we have seen what happens when men participate. We end up where we are now.

I also said this before, but asking questions about the security implications of allowing fluid gender identity (i.e. immigration and passports) might be a strategic wedge.

A quick post to say that I utterly support Blistory. Social Media has its virtues (it can provide a way for people to feel less lonely, allow alliegences to form and show the twitter watchers that there is considerable backlash against to transwacktivists, etc.), but the battle can't be fought there entirely. There are already some groups organising against the Bill and the movement more generally. Perhaps support could be offered to these?

I don't think that anyone will give a shit about women in this debate, sadly. Women have been blamed for being raped since time began - in this brave new world we will just be blamed for being raped or assaulted by AGPs, etc.

I think that the wedge is around transitioning childen. This isn't just about sterility, it is about a range of health effects caused by blockers and other drugs, as well as mutilation more generally. Drawing attention to de-transitioners would help, I think, as would stories from parents and child survivors of the trans movement, etc.

I know that it is hard for a range of people (old school trans, parents, those who were encouraged to transition and did / didn't and who regretted it if they did, etc.) to speak out, but women more generally can't do it all.

Blisters - yes. We need to be brave in real world. But as Japanese Tea says, it's hard to find out where to get together and start doing something. Well. Maybe easier than 18 months ago when I thought I was on my own. Thanks for the discussions. Hmm. Must be a way to organise.