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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

767 replies

dorade · 09/03/2017 10:13

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

  1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.
  1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.
  1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

OP posts:
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dangermouseisace · 20/03/2017 11:55

Yes I read about Lauren Jeska and what she did was terrible. Ralph Knibbs was a local hero throughout my childhood. But there are different categories of female prisons. It looks like specific safeguards were put in place where Tara Hudson was- which she wasn't happy about, but given who she was and what she had done, it was understandable. Women are much less likely to be violent but there are some e.g. Joanna Dennehy/Rose West so there are places for dangerous women whether transwomen or not, and different ways prisons deal with particular prisoners.

I think being completely anti everything trans can be quite an isolating position, and difficult to make a reasoned argument from. It is at the moment acceptable to change your gender/appearance whether we agree with it or not and that is how society works at present. We can't have society saying 'its ok to change' and then have prisons that don't match up with that, if the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 20/03/2017 11:01

I agree that you are right Ego and I apologise for implying you aren't aware that many transactivists disagree - I misinterpreted your post.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 20/03/2017 10:47

I think Ego's absolutely right and is also well aware that many transactivists aren't saying it.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 20/03/2017 10:33

If you keep your penis because you 'like it', then you aren't trans

As I understand it, that is very much not what many transactivists are saying, but would be very happy to be corrected.

BirdyBlue · 20/03/2017 10:28

Have you all seen this article from the Guardian? It's supportive of the view that Jenni Murray put forward and talks about sports!!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/18/identity-issue-our-age-talk-more-honestly-trans-women

Datun · 20/03/2017 10:20

'Andie' disagrees with that ego.

egosumquisum1 · 20/03/2017 09:58

I can see why people don't want major surgery. There are risks involved. But keeping your penis because you like it and want to use it for sexual purposes means you aren't trans and aren't trapped in the wrong body.

Keep your penis if you are worried about major surgery.
If you keep your penis because you 'like it', then you aren't trans.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 20/03/2017 09:56
Grin
Datun · 20/03/2017 09:55

'Andie' has said they do not feel like a woman trapped in a man's body, they like their penis, they wear sexy lingerie at the weekends, but not during the week.

You can add 'Andie' to their own list.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 20/03/2017 09:45

I am wondering if that blogger is strangeadventure from the Jeska thread.

Thanks Datun, adding Lauren Jeska to Andie's list of not real transwomen.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 20/03/2017 09:28

Anyone on Twitter , please look out for tweets with #21CSuffragette #SexNotGender #GenderIdentityBill

The second reading of the Gender Identity Bill is this Friday so it's a good time to get this tweeted.

WobblyLegs5 · 20/03/2017 09:17

Can someone with organisational skills compile them & email out or similar

sticklebrix · 20/03/2017 08:56

Thank you MN for allowing this debate.

Is anyone taking screenshots of trans discussions in feminist chat? I feel nervous about the resources and discussions here disappearing if MN is heavily lobbied by trans activists such as andie and is compelled to react.

Datun · 20/03/2017 08:47

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans

I am wondering if that blogger is strangeadventure from the Jeska thread.

He has certainly used posts from that thread.

I'm happy to have more questioning people look at mumsnet, if that's the effect of this article. Mumsnetters are articulate, rational and well informed.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 20/03/2017 08:34

Oh bless.

If Andie's tracking sources we might even get a visit on this thread.

So if real women are all angels who are never nasty, then Andie's confirming that Tara Hudson (violent criminal) India Willoughby (very rude to Jenni Murray), Kellie Maloney (wife-strangler), Caitlin Jenner (told funny story in public about stealing young daughter's knickers to wank in), Danielle Muscato ("suck my dick"), Sophia Brooks ("suck my formaldehyde-pickled balls") and the lovely Stefonknee Wolscht (found guilty of assault) are not real women. Right, Andie?

I know plenty of transwomen are lovely people. Plenty of men are lovely people too. But the genuinely lovely ones respect women.

WrongTrouser · 20/03/2017 08:19

Real women have hearts which are pure and full of love for other people. Their hearts and their minds are open – not closed to minorities just because they’re different, because they don’t want them to join their special club

Yeah, womanhood is not a "club". Says it all that they think it is really.

Datun · 20/03/2017 08:11

It's working. We're beginning to rattle some cages.

andiepasdedeux.wordpress.com/2017/03/18/mumsnet-terfs-youre-not-real-women/

Thecatsmum · 20/03/2017 07:56

We should (and would) be campaigning for the transgender community to have their own rights and spaces. Terms like cross dressing should disappear. A man should be able to wear what are perceived as womans clothes just as I can comfortably wear trousers and shirts. Male violence against transgender people should be properly investigated and punished.

However the transgender community needs to realise they can't encroach on the hard won rights of others. A group can't ride roughshod over other people just because they shout louder. They should be obtaining their own rights and protections, which they do have enshrined in law anyway.

As far as I'm concerned any trans woman shouting to be let into woman only spaces is a selfish, thoughtless person. Fight for your own rights and spaces and I'll happily stand with you.

Datun · 20/03/2017 00:15

Tara Hudson was an intact male with a 'worrying criminal record' and eight previous convictions.

GuardianLions · 19/03/2017 23:48

Poor guy

WrongTrouser · 19/03/2017 23:33

Ralph Knibbs

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem
WrongTrouser · 19/03/2017 23:12

was violent

The court heard how Mr Knibbs, a former rugby player with Bristol, suffered a stroke at the scene which temporarily blinded him in one eye

He now has limited vision in both eyes, rendering him disabled, his movement is restricted and he has difficulty eating due to severed nerves

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

GuardianLions · 19/03/2017 22:59

But dangermouse Jeska demonstrated male strength in dominating a sport he'd only just taken on when competing with women, male entitlement in thinking this was an acceptable and fair thing to do, and male pattern violence in taking two big knives and trying to murder the people that wanted to stop him.

What part of that is 'living as a woman'? He seems like a big strong, dangerous man to me - does your sympathy extend to the women in prison with him (who won't be easily able to defend themselves if he attacks them)?

venusinscorpio · 19/03/2017 22:42

Tara Hudson still had a seven inch surprise.

dangermouseisace · 19/03/2017 22:02

I must be in the minority- I couldn't see prob with Tara Hudson going to women's jail given she'd had hormones/surgery/lived as female for years. Being in male jail seemed inhumane. Likewise Lauren Jeska. She cheated and was violent- but if you've got a 'female' body and been living as one for years going to male jail just seems wrong.

The 2 recent cases involving rape- at least 1 of whom is basically a fully functioning bloke in a dress- they should be in male jails but I think there is no general need for punishing genuine transwomen more than other people (by sending them to the place they most stick out like a sore thumb).

I still worry about assigning crimes to the wrong biological sex though.

Ready to be flamed hiding behind sofa