Girls' school allows pupils to identify as boys

Very interesting stopmakingsense - that makes a lot of sense.

Amy Afair, the website just has a piece about the uniform historically.

St Paul's has its schtick that no uniform encourages individualism & self-expression, but I take that with a pinch of salt personally.

Clothes are clothes. Yes and no. In an ideal world that would be true. In the real world, it's generally more true for women than for men.

And for some teenagers clothes can be very powerful (for them) in constructing a social identity.

For those with gender issues - clothes can become part of their construction of gender identity.

We live in a time of gender fluidity and freedom to dress how we like, but also one in which gender stereotypes are heightened.

It can lead to quite stereotyped styling, as in the cases of Jenner and Maloney. But then it's difficult to know whether they dress the way they do as it fits their concept of femininity or for other reasons.

Quite a lot of parents on here are dealing with self-diagnosed transgender daughters who also are on the autistic spectrum - in our case undiagnosed until after the gender issues came to light. They are over-represented in the gender clinics. There is also a significant overlap with girls with anorexia. So they grow up with a weak sense of identity, not fitting in socially with other girls and then latch on to the idea (with the black or white thinking they are prone to) that they must be the other gender. In time, they may realise this isn't the case, and then return to their natal sex (of course this is so much harder if they are celebrated and applauded for their bravery, and worse provided with hormones "as the only treatment"). Whether or not this is relevant to this girls' school, I don't know, but it may be.

IAmAmy

Hi Amy

The other thing about reinforcing gender roles is that a large part of the trans-ideology deliberately reinforces exceptionally damaging gender roles. It's not all just about skirts and make up.

Transactivists have said how they revel in street harassment, about how sex sessions with multiple men is empowering.

Autogynephilia relies on the perception of women as victims. It's pushing the stereotypical female gender role down just about as far as it can go.

(I sometimes wonder whether this compulsion to keep telling everyone how disadvantaged, discriminated against and abused they are, is all part and parcel of AGP.)

HeyRoly
Harmless, as long as they aren't all marched off to the nearest gender clinic and started on testosterone

Unfortunately, this may happen, if they are over 18. The affirmative approach means denying this treatment is considered conversion therapy.

Unfortunately all this does in my opinion is reinforce gender roles as it suggests the only way to break free of them is to decide you're not boy rather than a girl, or vice versa.

Only you cannot really break free from the feminine gender role. Men do not ask the women they rape how they identify. Abortion laws also do not ask for gender identity, if you can get pregnant, you're fucked.
The only way to get out of some kinds of oppression via "transition" is full-on sugery and hormones, which I am sure significantly lowers a woman's lifespan.

Telling everyone that you are called Dave now does nothing to reduce the oppression you face. The girls who do that are delusional.

And wearing a binder, which might, perhaps, reduce the sleazy comments on your breasts, is already permanently damaging. (I had no idea before this whole transnonsense got started, how damaging it is to flatten breasts; if I had been offered the opportunity to wear a binder, I would totally have, for the same reasons others have already stated. Only now I know that it permanently damages the tissue, yes, even the allegedly "safe" binders, let alone the selfmade alternatives.)

YY I had a friend who was like that and she had a terrible time.

It's a lot for girls to manage when they are young,

Other people's behaviour can make things very difficult as well

YY vestal

In my day, girls starved themselves and wore baggy clothes to cover their developing bodies.

It's a scary time and when you start getting "noticed" by men, even if they aren't doing anything bad or obvious, it's unsettling.

The popularity of breast binders is for obvious reasons, surely? Obvious to me anyway.

I agree with you vestal

I wonder what's making these girls reject their sex, though? Because it sure as hell isnt gender dysphoria.

Why are you so sure?

Why do you write "gender dysphoria"? Of course they have gender dysphoria.

I just doubt many of them have sex dysphoria.

But I readily believe that many of them hate the gender role that is being forced on women under patriarchy.

And pretty sure that misogyny is what is causing them to reject their sex.

In the past, there just wasn't an accepted way of getting out of this shit, other than perhaps by becoming anorectic and thus preventing the development of an adult female body that would be objectified.

Now that there is, I am not much surprised. To those girls, it must be like a giant neon sign reading "Exit" over a door that seemingly leads out of oppression.

They'll soon realize that the door will not lead them to freedom, but just to another prison, and will then perhaps join the feminists who are digging their way out of patriarchy prison with a rusty spoon, metaphorically speaking - which will take much longer but has an actual chance of getting us out.

What this says to me is that the school do not accept the creed that if a girl says she is male that literally means that at that moment she becomes male.

If they did believe this, they would be having conversations about either removing them, or moving to be a mixed sex school. As they would genuinely believe that X number of their pupils at the girls school were male.

They are going to have issues when transgirls start applying - as are all single sex schools. When the law changes they will not be able to say no.

Also for non binary / agender / whatever - what schools are they allowed to go to?

I find it a bit off that St Paul's made such an issue - as its a school where the Girls don't wear Uniform. I know a boys school which has had boys "transition" and stay at the school, and not have the huge publicity despite the fact the school does have a uniform.

Personally I prefer the Oxford approach - that anyone can wear either form of dress (male of female sub fusc). Of course anyone can use whatever name they want. And anyone can do any subjects they want. No one should be sexually harassed or flaunt their sexual preferences in school, and should be able to change privately if they choose. And Toilets should be nicer and private (quite a few schools have mixed toilets now).

I think the previous poster who said it's the new goth/emo has probably hit the nail on the head in this case. I sincerely hope it's just a bit of silly teenage navel gazing, in the same way that some kids question their sexuality. But because it's a "thing" right now, they're questioning their gender instead.

Harmless, as long as they aren't all marched off to the nearest gender clinic and started on testosterone

I wonder what's making these girls reject their sex, though? Because it sure as hell isnt gender dysphoria.

One thing that strikes me is I have only ever come across (as an adult maybe 2 transgender people apart from when travelling around Thailand)
As kids growing up you did have tomboy girls and feminate boys but none that were deeply distressed about being the gender that they were.
It seems to be now there are loads and loads, almost an epidemic of transgender children
Is it
A- people are more accepting nowadays
B- a medical reason i.e. Conspiracy theory's of the female pill in the water supply etc or something affecting pregnancies
C- it's become 'fashionable' to say your child is transgender and 'oh how accepting we are that we let 3 year old johnny be a girl (my DS1 went through a phase at 2 of wearing a pink feather boa everywhere and carrying a doll, it didn't mean he was meant to be a girl!)

I understand to have a truly transgender child must be very hard and surely any acceptance is good but I'm just confused where all these children have suddenly come from??

I have a DC at at a school called Latymer Upper which is co-ed independent near to St Paul's Girls. On school forms now, parents or pupils are asked to tick one of three boxes - 'male', 'female' or 'non-binary'. My DC tells me there are a few students who identify as non-binary, but apart from that nobody could care less really.

I think I probably would also say the same about a woman dressed the same way.

I think we all know how clothing is seen by many as highly gendered, and that it's also a lot more accepted for girls/women to wear clothes that are usually associated with boys/men than vice versa. Boys/men face a lot more social stigma for wearing clothes more usually associated with girls/women.

I originally put 'stereotypically' but I felt it was perhaps a bit judgemental. I wouldn't say that about a woman who dressed similarly.

I'd have said "stereotypically" rather than "typically" personally.