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Original poster

The murder of Bethany Hill

61 replies

Bragadocia · 03/03/2017 11:29

In the Commons yesterday, Jess Phillips read a list of women murdered by men in the past year. According to Hansard, Bethany Hill did not appear on this year's list, not last year's (her death was on 3 February 2016, the conviction of her killers was January 2017).

Bethany was murdered by a man and transwoman. Why has Bethany's death not been acknowledged?

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EyeStye · 03/03/2017 21:44

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BarrackerBarma · 03/03/2017 21:31

Police forces and the ONS have been reporting crimes by selfdeclared gender for years.

I've fact checked this myself.

So 100 women murdered by 100 men in the ONS statistics does not necessarily mean what people think it does.

Each individual case that makes the news has to be taken with a pinch of salt until you can reliably ascertain the sex of victim/perpetrator. It is often not what it is reported to be.

Original poster
Bragadocia · 03/03/2017 20:08

Sorry, 'qualify' is an awful word to use to describe women's murders.

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Original poster
Bragadocia · 03/03/2017 20:07

EyeStye to qualify for this list, what is required is: "killed by men, or where a man is the principal suspect."

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Original poster
Bragadocia · 03/03/2017 20:02

Can I just clarify, as I didn't mean to offend - what I meant by 'word of mouth' is a reliance on people noticing and reporting (in this case press reports), rather then by some official source (I don't know, police data, CPS or something). I certainly wasn't suggesting gossip or anything like that.

I think it's very valuable to collect this information. But the numbers can't be relied upon as 'statistics' if people are omitted, even if not intentionally.

In Feb 2016, this murder was reported in the BBC, ITV, the Mail, the Sun, the Independent, as well as the local Midlands press. That's significant coverage.

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OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 03/03/2017 20:00

I don't think that anyone is implying that Karen is doing anything less than stellar work, however I'm unnerved that she is the only source tracking this. Surely this should be compiled amongst police reports or by the ONS? Are they so blasé about tracking other murder statistics?

Xenophile · 03/03/2017 19:27

Bragadocia.

K I-S's work is also part of a PhD thesis I believe, so suggestions that it might not stand up to scrutiny are unwelcome. A good friend's mother is on the list, the mere fact that K I-S wades through this particular sewer of men's behaviour toward women is valued and valuable.

EyeStye · 03/03/2017 18:35

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Datun · 03/03/2017 18:32

Journalist guidelines are that you cannot mention if the person is trans unless it is pertinent to the case.

Datun · 03/03/2017 18:29

saskia

The report I read didn't say he was trans until the bottom quarter of the article. The first three quarters just called him by his female name and didn't mention it.

Datun · 03/03/2017 18:27

Bragadocia

It's not word-of-mouth. It's on newspaper reporting. She gets alerted through word of mouth. She checks it out herself. It's all completely backed up including the trial if there is one.

It's just that often these things get reported locally and not nationally. She merely compiles them into a list.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 03/03/2017 18:24

But it was reported that Woods was trans in the local media which is available online. The information was out there.

Bambambini · 03/03/2017 17:35

I imagine it's an oversight.

I remember when Bethany's murder was reported and just how horrific it was. I was doubly shocked that a couple was responsible - i know women are capable of horrible cruel crimes but it was really chilling in how it was planned. When the trial results were reported in January and it was revealed that Woods was male - i felt doubly shocked that we are being lied to and gaslighted about the sex of the perpetrators. It's unbelievable how truth and history is being rewritten. Makes me doubt everything i'm reading now when it comes to how facts are being reported.

picklemepopcorn · 03/03/2017 17:09

So, she wasn't deliberately excluded because of the confused (and confusing) gender identity of her killer?

Original poster
Bragadocia · 03/03/2017 16:58

But if the statistics are derived from effectively word of mouth, rather than from a definitive source, then I'd query whether it is indeed brilliant that they can used in an official capacity - the work needs to stand up to scrutiny.

I absolutely agree that it is a highly commendable endeavour though.

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Datun · 03/03/2017 16:33

Karen does it all herself and lists the women on her website.

kareningalasmith.com/

I see that people often send a comment with someone she might have missed or not heard about, which she is always grateful for.

The fact that her list is used in an official capacity is brilliant. It can also be used to gather statistics on gender, so it's good to keep her informed.

FlaviaAlbia · 03/03/2017 16:29

That's a relief. I'd hate to have thought politics had got in the way.

BarrackerBarma · 03/03/2017 16:19

As others have clarified:
The list is compiled by Karen Ingala Smith
her sources are news reports which are brought to her attention
Bethany slipped the net and only came to Karen's attention a few weeks ago, whereupon she was added to the 2016 list
however, last year JP only received the list from which Bethany was absent.

This is really unlucky but now provides an opportunity for Bethany and also other women who were missed from the 2016 list to be included on future lists.

Now that we realise Karen is dependent on people making her aware of news reports of murders we can help her. I had assumed she had a different mechanism.

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 03/03/2017 15:44

I've just realised that my username could be confused as a namechange of HairyLittlePoet. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not the same Hairy. I am very hairy. I'm a rubbish poet, however.

I'll probably namechange now because I don't want Hairy to think I'm trying to impersonate, if she's still around

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 03/03/2017 15:38

Gah, 2017, not 2107!

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 03/03/2017 15:37

I'm inclined to agree that it was an unfortunate timing issue. Bethany's name wasn't listed on Karen Ingala Smith's website until January 2017. Internet archive copies confirm this.

However, Bethany's name should have been included in the 2107 reading to make up for the fact it was missed in 2016.

Original poster
Bragadocia · 03/03/2017 15:13

It's not impossible that Bethany's name was omitted from the list at the time it was read out. However:

The people who carried out Bethany's murder on the 3rd Feb were charged on 7th Feb and appeared in court the next day. Rose Hill and Julie Hill, the last names to be read on the chronological list, were killed on 26th Feb, and their murderer charged on the 29th.

I don't see why Bethany's name wouldn't have been put on the list by the compiler when the murder happened - it wasn't exactly an ignored story, and received a lot of coverage in the days following her death (you can run a Google news search for the relevant days).

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ageingrunner · 03/03/2017 15:12

Hopefully that's the case re her not yet being on the list. Hi Indominus 👋

GwenStaceyRocks · 03/03/2017 15:08

Countess have any of them commented publically that it was a timing issue? I haven't seen that response elsewhere.

IndominusRex · 03/03/2017 14:45

Waves at ageingrunner