How should trans individuals be included in competitive sport?

It's happening.

My 10 year old dd is competing against a biological male her own age, and has done since they were 7.

They are in a sport where the male skeleton is an advantage. Although neither the transchild nor my dd has hit puberty yet, the transchild, being male, or taking puberty blockers, will not develop breasts and a widened pelvis which is a disadvantage in this sport- around 11-12 the prepubescents are way ahead of those in full puberty due to centre of gravity, then it catches up about 16. Males stay far head.

It's not only sports that are directly affected by this issue: In America, for example, transwomen using their male height and other muscular-skeletal advantages to win women's basketball scholarships, would be taking uni places intended for women.

I think women/men/open might fairly quickly become "women/men/just another men's competition" if there was nothing stopping men entering the open competition.

I'd be all for an extra category, by the way.

• Women, men, open
• Women, men, transgender
• Women, men, MtF, FtM

Any of those.

You can't run a gelding in a mares only race, even if you plait pink ribbons in its mane. They have no bollocks but are officially recognised to have a 7lb advantage over mares in the rest of the races (mares have to carry 7lb less) because the geldings have the athletic advantage of having spent their first few years of life with testes.

Good comparison.

Are there any reasoned voices from the trans community debating this?

They go strangely quiet when it suits.

I thought that.

What's to stop the Paralympian David Weir from competing in the Olympic marathon? His times in the wheelchair marathon are faster than the top elite athletes for the marathon at the Olympics.

He had no choice about being born without the use of his legs so why should he be excluded from the Olympics? It is mean and horrible and vile and disgusting to exclude him surely?

Or are we supposed to believe that his wheelchair advantage would be "unfair" but someone's male body in a women's event would be "fair"?

Grrr.

I do wonder when the trans-abled are going to be able to compete in the Paralympics. After all, a feeling in ones head overrules biological reality right? And it wouldn't be unfair on the (amazing) athletes who compete in the Paralympics...

And this doesn't just affect elite sport for women (although obviously that is bad enough).

How do we motivate our own daughters to even have an interest in sport if sport has no interest in them? If sport is saying "Well, you can join in, of course, but you'll never have the XY needed to succeed in "women's" sport", then that has huge implications. As well as being bonkers.

And then if our daughters turn away from sport then that has a massive effect on physical health, mental health, fun, working with others, working towards a goal. Just ordinary stuff to keep yourself fit and have fun, not elite stuff.

I'm really surprised that some people (not on here obviously) haven't actually considered this. But then impact on women and girls really isn't high on a lot of people's agendas sadly.

"I'm not sure I always understand the necessity to separate things out into 'mens' and 'womens' sports."

Um, because women would never (or exceedingly rarely) win, place or be in the top 10 or similar. Which would mean women would never win any prize money, get any sponsorship deals etc. Pretty much the end of elite women's sport would result.

Do you also wonder why we have junior races, Marklah?

Or should a 26 year old be able to compete in a 400 metre race for under 12s?

If we are getting rid of the sex barrier, surely we could get rid of the age barrier also?

And what about nationality? I wonder if I should be able to compete for St. Kitts and Nevis despite never having been there?

That wrestler is an interesting case - was involved (as a man) in the sports' governing body in NZ, which rather suggests he was quite "old" in athletics terms when he transitioned - yet as she, is now breaking world records...

Reminds me a bit of Fallon Fox (I owe the following assessment to a male MMA fan's comment BTL on a Guardian article) - as a man he was nothing special, never made it into the national rankings, transitioned at an age when most MMA fighters of both sexes are retiring because they're too old to compete at their peak - then spent years beating every woman Fallon fought against. Yet we were supposed to miraculously believe that this middle-aged fighter with no track record of being anything out of the ordinary was suddenly the best woman in the world in their age category and that the hormonal/musculo-skeletal playing field had been completely levelled and everything was completely fair. It just doesn't wash.

Interestingly, power lifting is one of the sports where sexual dimorphism is most evident - the woman's record in the top female weight category is still less than the men's record in the lowest male weight category. (Someone put a link to a graph with the records up on a previous thread).

Maybe an option would be to have a sport competition based purely on the sport itself, open to all -
E.g - 1000m sprint, High jump, swimming whatever stroke/distance etc.

• competitors may be female, male, trans, but they all compete in the same competition.

I'm not sure I always understand the necessity to separate things out into 'mens' and 'womens' sports.

For the same reason I don't see why it isn't possible to build venues (for any purpose) with toilets which are gender-neutral. Baby change facilities should be provided more freely, and all cubicles should be accessible.

Reading more about this, Tracy Lambrechts is trying to make the team in the next weight category down, which involves losing a fair amount of weight.

'At one Dunedin gym, she broke two records held by Glasglow bronze medallist Tracy Lambrechts.

She took Tracy's place in the national team heading to Australia in a fortnight's time.'

Well I am sure Tracy is just thrilled. And not able to say anything as she would be a nasty bigot for commenting anything less than gushingly...

A TW has been selected to compete internationally for New Zeand in weight lifting.

www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/nz-weightlifting-body-stands-decision-let-first-transgender-weightlifter-compete

I don't see that it is a complicated issue at all. Either men compete as men and women compete as women biologically speaking. Or they make sport non gender and everyone competes together. You can't have men competing with women even if they identify as women. It's madness.

At the moment they do it the other way round: effectively they have men's events, for proper real men, the default proper human, the perfect sex. Everyone hard to classify is allowed to just go in with the women as we're the leftovers in the seconds pile.

You can't run a gelding in a mares only race, even if you plait pink ribbons in its mane. They have no bollocks but are officially recognised to have a 7lb advantage over mares in the rest of the races (mares have to carry 7lb less) because the geldings have the athletic advantage of having spent their first few years of life with testes.
For humans, I think they should have women's events (XX chromosomes and a suitable level of testosterone...enough to allow women with PCOS to compete) and the rest should be open events.

Link

www.transactiveonline.org/resources/youth/puberty-blockers.php

Ok. It's is graded in stages 1-5. 1 being from birth to the onset of puberty. In girls it starts at number 2 with breast development and this is when blockers are introduced. You can't do it before because the hormone it suppresses has to be present for it to be suppressed.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel

So what's the legal age for puberty blockers?

I've just tried to find out. With little success. According to Mermaids the Tavistock use something called the Tanner Scale which grades maturity according to adolescent development.

So it depends on when you start maturing physically.

where

So yes. If you start at eight years old, then that is the beginning of the process. I suppose they must balance the mental maturity of the individual against the need to start blockers before they develop sex characteristics?

I'll keep digging.

Datun isn't puberty kicking in earlier and earlier? I've read of primary schools having to be aware that girls can start their periods as young as eight these days.

That's so scary and obviously unethical. I just don't understand how medical professionals are condoning this.