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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you help me make sense of why this conversation annoyed me?

59 replies

Mrstumbletap · 26/02/2017 16:26

So I'm a teacher and I am lucky to teach sixth form students too, they are awesome and come back with real questions about rape, about same sex marriage, about wearing revealing clothing, equal pay etc and want to know more, they challenge me and I challenge them back and I can literally see their minds unfolding in front of me, it's fantastic.

Anyway I am currently training a teacher too and he often observes my lessons and contributes. On Friday the students were talking about job roles and the trainee teacher I will call him 'Gary' said "yeah but some roles are better for men, they are stronger, not all roles should be given to all people". He used army/infantry roles as an example. I challenged this but he stuck to his guns and said some things that involve strength are just better for men.

Then later the class were talking about the footage of a trump supporter being interviewed saying "women shouldn't rule a country they could start wars too easily" the reporter replies "but aren't all wars started by men?" Gary then chips in and says "No Helen of Troy started a war!"

I was then showing the students a link I found on social media called "women at the top" (don't know if you have seen it) and it shows images of The Houses of Parliament, the EU, White House meetings etc with loads of people and then another image with all the men removed using photoshop, showing there are only 1 or 2 women in these important meetings. The strap line is 'There is room for more women at the top'. Gary then says "I have no problem with the women being in these positions as long as they are qualified". But he isn't questioning the qualifications of the men in these positions?!

It has bugged me all weekend, am I over thinking this or is his challenging of these examples justified?

OP posts:
Missswatch · 26/02/2017 21:20

Really? Put Rhonda Rousy against GSP in an MMA match and we know who will win

Men are naturally stronger and as such suited to certain jobs

Mrstumbletap · 26/02/2017 21:15

Thank you reggaeshark.

When I challenged him on a few things he said "I grew up with Maggie Thatcher as Priminister, and have 2 sisters". as if to justify what he was saying. He also said "I don't think it's easier to be a man, apart from childbirth". He really has some interesting views.

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 26/02/2017 21:12

I don't envy you, OP. You're going to have to say something but he sounds such a hidebound sexist you'll be lucky to get through. I suppose getting him to substitute other groups for women might make a glimmer of light dawn. That Helen remark was just ignorant. I'd be asking him where he got that information.

I'd guess making him aware that in your opinion he's not performing well and that you'll say so is the most likely way to make him listen. I'm surprised one of your students hasn't said anything. We can but hope.

ReggaeShark · 26/02/2017 19:49

You sound like an ace teacher OP. Gary sounds like a misogynistic Dick.

Mrstumbletap · 26/02/2017 19:46

I actually teach art, but it covers so many feminist topics through the ages it's easy to just bring in interesting or relevant topics into conversation.

Also whilst all the students are working on a painting, conversations always flow between them so I like to get them thinking about things. Politics, feminism, recycling, healthy eating anything really that broadens their minds.

OP posts:
NotYoda · 26/02/2017 19:41

Gary doesn't even know his Greek mythology

noblegiraffe · 26/02/2017 19:17

Why was Gary chipping into your lesson? Undermining you? Doesn't he understand that his role is to observe, not behave like a member of the class?

What subject will he be teaching?

venusinscorpio · 26/02/2017 19:13

Helen of Troy is a great example of how women were (and still are in some countries) chattels of men to be fought over, rather than human beings with rights. What a sexist thick prick. As pp have said.

Fauchelevent · 26/02/2017 18:52

Vegan and vestal hit the nail on the head.

But i agree, whatever you teach sounds great!

DrMorbius · 26/02/2017 18:46

Any facts regarding the issues he raised you can fling my way would be great for me to bring up in our chat

Op, you may be a great teacher, but I doubt you are going to undo years of sexist crap "Gary" has learned. As for bringing up an at best apocryphal character as a proof of an argument Blush. I don't know which is worse, bringing up Helen or not understanding the context of the Trojan war (as said previously she was fought over as a possession).

As a bloke I wouldn't want this clown near my DS or DD's.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 26/02/2017 18:36

I seem to remember aged 14 that our history teacher used the Trojan war as an example of myth versus truth in historical documents. It was almost certainly a war over who got to control the highly strategic waterway through the Dardanelles and had its origins in trade and economic pressures. The myth of Helen was bolted on after the fact. But even if you just think about the mythical version, either Paris caused the war by abducting her, or Menelaus by starting a military campaign to get her back - she did not start the mythical war.

JennyHolzersGhost · 26/02/2017 18:10

If nothing else Gary needs to understand that his role is as a teacher not a pupil. So he should can it while you're teaching. He's there to observe you, not to give you the benefit of his manly opinion.
I suspect Gary has a problem with being trained by a woman though.
I would at the very least give him poor feedback on equalities awareness and receptiveness to observation and learning.

tribpot · 26/02/2017 18:07

DJ - you're right in your interpretation of the story of the Trojan War (fought over Helen not by her) but there's no strong evidence it ever happened in the way described. The events are supposed to have happened in the 11th century BC, i.e. 3000 years ago. Gary would have been better pointing out that Princess Leia started the war against the Galactic Empire.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 26/02/2017 17:57

Ask Gary why he is so threatened by women.

And also show him last weeks's episode of SAS Ultimate Hell Week in which about five men dropped out as opposed to one woman, with the result that there are now more women than men remaining in the competition.

As others have said, though, in all seriousness, I'd approach it from a teaching point of view. First, the factual inaccuracy of his reference to Helen of Troy. Secondly, the insistence on promoting his particular point of view over the more valuable learning opportunity of encouraging the students to discuss alternative points of view. Ask him what evidence he can use to support his point about men just being more qualified for some jobs, rather than unsupported assertion. Ask him what resources he would use to teach the topic of the gender pay gap which would allow students to evaluate both points of view.

If he is a trainee on placement, I would certainly raise it as a formal concern with his supervisor. He sounds as if he will make a very, very poor teacher. In my experience (over twenty years of it) teenage boys rarely need their sense of male privilege shored up. Rather, they need to be encouraged to challenge and examine it.

DJBaggySmalls · 26/02/2017 17:55

Gary has internalized misogyny; he doesnt question his views at all.
Helen of Troy did not start a war. A war was started over possession of Helen of Troy.
He assumes men belong and doesnt question them.

tribpot · 26/02/2017 17:50

This page from the European Commission goes through the basic flaws in the 'women take time off to have babies and thus earn less' argument, with jaunty music and graphics that Gary may (or may not) be able to comprehend.

Okite · 26/02/2017 17:43

The pay gap is also a comparison of hourly rate, so full or part time doesn't skew it in the way he imagines it does.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 26/02/2017 17:28

Give him a ticket to Washington - love this suggestion. Going off Betty de Vos' performance in her confirmation hearing as (lack of) education secretary, they'd get on like a house on fire.

tribpot · 26/02/2017 17:13

As Gary can't distinguish between history and mythology and Gary is quite clearly a galloping sexist, I strongly suggest Gary pack a bag and get the first flight to Washington. The Trump Administration will have him wailing on CNN about the Bowling Green Massacre ("ordered by Helen of Troy") before you know it.

I would agree with PP, speak to a supervisor before Gary gets to turn this into bitter strident feminist doesn't like to have her views questioned. But also use him as a teaching aid for the class. So:

  • Gary's premise is that the reason why there is gender imbalance in executive positions in government is due to a lack of qualified women competing for the roles. What evidence do we have to support or disprove this theory?
  • Gary believes front line combat roles require a level of physical strength that no woman can achieve. What can we find out about the qualifications required of both male and female combatants? What can we learn from the Israeli Defence Force?

When Gary refuses to change his mind, I would then ask him whether he thinks his attitudes would be acceptable in a school if they were about people from different religions or races (and who knows, you may find he has those beliefs too). I'd ask the students what they think about teachers and how their personal beliefs should intersect with their responsibilities to their students (one of mine defended apartheid to us - I think based on the standard bollocks of the day which was it was necessary to keep the tribes living apart from each other in order to keep the peace).

Mrstumbletap · 26/02/2017 17:10

Right thank you! It wasn't just me was it? He was being sexist.

I will raise it with him next week and say he needs to be careful if he hopes to qualify in teaching (he hasn't yet) and shape the young minds of tomorrow that these opinions of his seem to lean towards sexism. He is quite arrogant so I know he will argue and disagree.

He also said other things too about equal pay - that he disagrees that it is unequal and that women go part time after children so the pay gap is skewed. It was just too much sexism in the space of a lesson that was difficult to tackle all of it with facts. Especially when my aim was to educate the students not the 33 year old man!

Any facts regarding the issues he raised you can fling my way would be great for me to bring up in our chat.

And that 'man that has it all' page is bloody brilliant I'm going to use that next week.

OP posts:
highinthesky · 26/02/2017 17:06

You could exact revenge through his assessments but that wouldn't be professional.

Let him know that his comments are being construed as sexist, and as such set a poor examufor impressionable students.

FleasSitOnPeas · 26/02/2017 17:02

Isn't Helen of Troy a myth? So not even a real world example. Having to resort to fiction to try and prove his point... Sexist and not very intelligent. Are you sure he's "qualified"? Wink

TwoLeftSocks · 26/02/2017 16:55

There's a fb page called Man Who Has It All, which does a good job of flipping sexist comments round. I think that's a good test to show how absurd something is.

m.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=845933925525600

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 26/02/2017 16:54

Which subject do you teach?

Bitofacow · 26/02/2017 16:53

Gary sounds like a dick. Gary is also wrong. Helen of Troy was kidnapped.

Gary needs his arse kicked.

What is Gary going to be teaching? Trying o teach.

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