Trans law in USA

Datun. I think you get me. Maybe I am too empathic to the Rachels. I want to fight for the underdog. I see these people who are obviously very conflicted in their own minds and want to help them. I also have a theory for true trans people which is physical and not mental which probably clouds my judgement.

I don't understand how unisex toilets take away dignity. I have had workplaces with unisex loos and the only issue has been men who don't lift the seat. I am massively empathic to anyone who has suffered abuse. I get most of the other arguments. I just can't see the issue with unisex loos. I haven't been abusive to anyone or even said that they are wrong. I am one of the most open minded, forgiving people you could meet. I truly, even as an abuse survivor, don't see the downside of unisex loos done properly. I would understand single sex tube trains more to be honest as I have felt more threatened there than in any loo.

dan

You're trying to find the layer in transactivisism that is made up of people like Miranda and Helen and find a solution which will benefit them, benefit women, and keep out the predators.

Firstly, I use Miranda and Helen a lot because there are very few transwomen who hold their opinions. Or if there are, their silence is deafening. Why aren't they standing up in massive numbers saying not in our name? If they are truly women, why are they not helping us?

Secondly, I don't buy the 'born in the wrong body' narrative. Do you tell an anorexic that mother nature made a huge biological cock up because she should've been born skeletal? Do you to tell a trans-abled person that it is a horrible twist of fate that made them be born with four functioning limbs and not the paraplegic they yearn to be?

Gender dysphoria is real. But it is not a biological mistake. It is distress over a body part.

It should not be given civil rights.

You asked what are the percentage of genuine trans-women? My interpretation of that would be what are the percentage of people with gender dysphoria who don't want to appropriate women's rights/spaces?

I don't know the numbers. But well over 80% of transwomen keep, and use, their male genitalia. That should give you an indication.

The remaining 20% who aren't interested in appropriating women's spaces, because they are essentially gay and attracted to men presumably don't really care that much about the political situation. So although you are thinking of them, they are not really thinking of you (not in a nasty way, they're just not bothered).

You said you couldn't see why it was a dignity issue for women. That's not particularly empathetic, is it? That's why you're getting lumped in with men, because you're basically saying fuck you to the women who don't want to share their intimate spaces with men. Many of these women are also survivors.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My past has given me a fucked up view of lots of things. My counselling helped me come to terms with that. Being sexualised as a toddler means that I developed a slightly warped view on lots of things. Maybe it is something I will never understand.

Dan - it's men who have done those things. I also have bloody good reasons not to want to share a loo with men, the incidents in voyeurism alone are skyrocketing.

I'm fine with people debating what I have actually said. I'm slightly pissed off that you haven't taken into account the horrific abuse I have already mentioned! I'm far from being a mindless male supporter. I have had a shit load of survivor counselling to get where I am today.

Again you are not reading what I said. I have been harassed numerous times by men. I have been raped once as an adult. I had a relative touch me in appropriately as a teenager and was regularly abused and raped by an older child from before I can remember until nine. Maybe that gives me a slightly fucked up view of boundaries. I still don't feel at risk with the idea of unisex loos if they are done properly.

Still don't get the women need women's loos for dignity thing. Sorry, I don't see it.

Cool, good for you. By admission you're a practical nudist and the only time you've been harassed was by a lesbian.

That's very different to most women's experience. My daughter is twelve and has already been subjected to intimidating sexual behaviour from men and boys.

i would like her to have a female space to pee, is that okay?

It still seems to me that abusive men are the real enemy, not the Rachels.

It still seems to me that abusive men are the real enemy, not the Rachels.

That is the question. How to weed out the Malcolms. Maybe by leaving it as it is with a blind eye to the Rachels until we can sort out unisex safe loos for all. Win win for me as a mother of boys. If men are so dangerous in loos surely it can only benefit our young boys. It would be interesting to see how many boys are attacked in men's loos compared with the amount of women attacked in women's.

You don't have to "get it". You just have to recognise that many other women don't want men in intimate women's spaces.

Dan, that's fine in principle but it's Malcolm that's bashing the door down and has the ear of the Government. How do you keep him out while letting Rachel in?

Toronto university have had to withdraw their "gender neutral" facilities after men wer found videoing women in showers on at least two separate occasions.

Ahh now we are getting somewhere. I don't agree with a law that insists that any schoolboy Malcolm can get into the girls changing room as long as there is give and take when it comes to Rachel. The worry I always have with the US is the fundamental Christians going against any type of inclusive behaviour. Well most of their straight white middle class 'this is God's will behaviour to be honest. Still don't get the women need women's loos for dignity thing. Sorry, I don't see it.

It's about privacy and dignity and women's boundaries as well as safety. And most people aren't "nudists". So they are deeply uncomfortable with men in their spaces. Why should their feelings be trumped by transwomen's?

Well exactly. Entrance into the women's for non-women is a privilege, not a right.

The law that trump just revoked, made school's funding contingent on them letting people into whichever changing or toilet facility they felt like.

Now, we can say that girls are allowed to have a girls changing room, that males aren't allowed in, and the government will still fund you.

You can say that this is the girls swimming race, and males can't enter.

The current system of turning a blind eye to the Rachels whilst not accepting the Malcolms seems to work okay at the moment in my mind. When I was a teenager you could get in pubs and have a couple of vodka and oranges and the landlord turned a blind eye. If you caused any sort of issue you were straight out. This seems similar to me.