Trans law in USA

Googling isn't clear but would suggest no current legislation?

Is it actually illegal for men to go in female loos now? I genuinely don't know.

Those images of very passing trans men with "would you want them in the toilets with you?" seems to me to be the most ridiculous argument.

Obviously no, i wouldn't. you get this, you see that that person would probably make women sharing the bathroom with them feel uncomfortable... then you fail to join the dots to seeing that a non passing trans woman or non binary male would have the exact same effect. but we are supposed to be fine with one but scared of the other.

makes no sense at all.

bathroom and least offence as we have now and possibly a gender neutral option if there is space to put one seems the best idea to me.

Datun now I am confused, I thought I was agreeing with you

dan

Don't really care if they've made a significant effort or not. The fact is if they look like that sex no-one will notice. Like no one ever has really noticed.

Most trans people don't pass. The examples that Scottish has given are the exception. It may be easier for some women to pass as male, like it may be easier for some males to pass as female, if they transition when they are teenagers.

You can't do much about people who manage to disguise their sex that well. As they are few and far between, it doesn't really bother me.

datum yes, exactly. What we have now. If someone makes significant effort to pass as the other sex that is totally different to a bloke with a beard perving in the ladies.

scottish

It's not really a question of checking what is between peoples legs.

If sex segregated facilities are accepted, then that is what it is.

If a woman who looks like a man comes in, they will no doubt be questioned. That is the women's prerogative.

If the woman passes completely as a man, she can use the men's restroom as a courtesy. It doesn't matter if the men in there don't realise they are extending that courtesy.

We've been doing this for bloody years!

It's not about the odd few people who pass being forced to use the toilet of their biological sex. No one is going to know. It's about people obviously male coming into a female toilet for nefarious reasons.

If a trans-man who looks exactly like a man comes into a female toilet, she must expect to be questioned.

Bambambini where were you when this happened? The only unisex showers I have been in with my kids would be at public swimming pools/campsites/center parcs and I have never experienced it.

Shawn was born a woman. Do you want them in the womens bathroom?

I wonder what women will do to check what is between this persons legs to make sure that they are in the correct bathroom.....

Dan, i told you i had used unisex loo and shower area and had men standing outside the cubicle door ss i showered and crowding round me as i brushed my teeth.

And tbh, i wouldn't like to be a lone woman in a unisex loo area with a group of men around me.

In the US the two types of anti-trans groups are are putting their differences aside to face the problem together.

handsacrosstheaislewomen.com/

When single, I often went with my gay friends to very glamorous gay nightclubs. Once or twice I was the subject of some what I would say was a bit of 'state of her' behaviour in the loos and a bit of intimidation from a few lesbians who were trying to make me uncomfortable. But it really wasn't intimidating. It was akin to the girl smokers in the bathrooms at school break.

I can understand why they were annoyed with me; I was a fag hag and suspicious (was also quite glam in those days). But it was never a problem, I talked to them and we ended up having a laugh. Women are amazing.

And then I would fuck off and get a taxi to let mu friends find a lumber [lumber]

Most so called terfs are very liberal lefty lentil weavers, they have just woken up to the breathtaking misogyny that comes hand in hand with the trans movement.

I am also concerned that transition is being pushed as the only option and other safety nets have been removed. We have seen parents on here with children desperate to transition and the only option being offered is puberty blockers, when they turn them down all help is withdrawn. These are the people we should be helping but everyone is so scared of being called transphobic that they're not thinking straight.

Isn't the problem that there are two types of anti-trans groups - first type is the reactionary, small-minded conservative, who may also be homophobic, racist, anti-choice, unthinkingly prejudiced against all sorts of groups or concepts alien to their narrow viewpoint. This is where the pro-Trump types sit.

The other group is the gender-critical feminist who actually spends a lot of time considering, weighing up, reasoning and is generally on the side of the less privileged, LGB / ally, pro-choice, anti-racist, likely to be fighting for the rights of those who don't have them. This is the MN type.

Usually, there is not much crossover between these types but in this case their views intersect despite coming from very different rationales. It's one of the reasons most of the liberal left or general fence-sitters can't bring themselves to grasp the issues - they are anti Trump therefore they must be pro Trans.

I would prefer that biological sex differences were respected and both sexes were allowed to choose which clothes they were. Both sexes are allowed to develop their own personalities.

When I worked in retail we had an awful lot of transwomen who were aroused by the whole experience. To some dressing up as female is a sexual fetish.

Please read this about autogynephillia.
autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/

I have teenager children. I have learnt to pick my battles I guess. I would be out there protesting with the rest of you about women being forced into unsafe environments. Prison is the most extreme, being locked up against your will with someone you feel is a threat must be horrendous. I have felt that lack of control over my own life. Physically stronger men competing against women I think is totally unfair. With the loo thing I can see that we can have some wiggle room for the Rachels whilst fighting for the right for unisex loos which will benefit not only transwomen but young boys and gay men. Or physically weak men come to that without infringing on my rights as a woman. I truly don't get the downside of proper unisex loos. It wouldn't happen overnight and would take some campaigning but as a potential future grandmother I would feel happier with unisex loos for all. I would feel unhappy with the Malcolms having the right to demand access to female loos in the meantime but feel that if a man wants to wear a dress to access loos and perv they are likely to do it whatever the law. Very few people would challenge someone masculine looking in a loo because it is so hard to tell 100% without looking in their pants. There just seems so many other things where women or people in general are disadvantaged or abused that loos are really quite small fry.

dan

I also have a theory for true trans people which is physical and not mental which probably clouds my judgement.

Tell me about this. I don't want to be invasive, but I think your past history and current nudist stance are probably interlinked.

I understand you want to make everyone happy. And are reluctant to be forced to make a choice.

But it really isn't women or feminists who have forced that choice. It's men.

When I say "cubicle" I mean self contained units with floor to ceiling coverage. Not stalls.

"My straight woman privilege probably. In no way do I ever feel scared/threatened by lesbian or have any belief that they are violent as a group."

No worries about offence and bugger privilege checking! :-)

Just that I've seen this before several times, the attempts by some (not you, I get that!) to try and equate butch lesbians and transwomen. Myself and my missus get 'mis-gendered' all the time using public loos. But it's not a problem usually, because we are both female, and most women can recognise that given a chance. Which is the essential difference, we're female, and a transwoman isn't. Biology and sex matters.

I wouldn't mind single unisex cubicles off a corridor with sinks inside. Anything else, no thanks. Just because you can't personally wrap your brain around why sharing intimate spaces with men violates the boundaries, privacy and dignity of many women, doesn't mean it's not true.

Women are just as much the underdogs as transwomen are. Doesn't it tell you something that it's women who are expected to do all the accommodating? And that no one gives a fuck what they might feel about it?

dan

The only criticism of unisex toilets is partly because men tend to piss everywhere and partly the issue of if they open out into a general area with the mirror and the sinks,etc.

There is no issue per se if they opened out onto a general corridor.

However, the real issue is why do we have to go to a tremendous amount of expense and invest an awful lot of time, to pander to a movement, which we all massively disagree with?

And if you think unisex bathrooms, toilets and locker rooms will satisfy the transactivists, you couldn't be more wrong. They have been offered it countless times and turned it down on the basis that is it's 'othering'. If there was a unisex option and a woman's only option they want the woman's one.

I really don't think you're getting it. It is a deliberate, purposeful, intense campaign to get where women are. Whether it is for validation or because they have a kink or just because they're bloody-minded men's rights activists, who knows.

So yes, unisex options would work on paper. But it is only the thinnest edge of the thinnest wedge.

Just save a little bit of your empathy for women dan.