Wow. I'm pro choice but what nonsense

Absolutely agree Datun. The whole focus of women's issues is changing. The progress that has been made is becoming overshadowed. Voices of women are bwing drowned out.

itwas

I completely agree that the trans issue gets in the way of women's issues generally. But when it becomes transphobic or cissexist to attach those issues to 'women' and you have to scrabble around finding other words, it feels as though it is driving a stake through the heart of women's issues generally.

Talking about pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage etc as issues that affect women, rather than issues that affect 'people with vaginas' dilutes the potency inherent in the fact that it is women, not people generally who are affected.

When there are sites dedicated to women involving things like moon cups, for instance, and they are invaded by trans-activists insisting that every word that indicates it is a woman's problem be changed to either include men (transmen), or simply not talked about because they are triggering to trans-women and it's transphobic because not every 'woman' menstruates, it starts to become a big deal. And I agree, it really, really shouldn't be.

But these sorts of comments can get abusive very quickly. And it suddenly does become an issue.

Shins. No, I do not believe that men can get pregnant. No question about that. I just prefr to read the the pro choice message in this rather than the trans 'its all about me' message. I can skip her life story (it's boring anyway - most women have had a pregnancy scare at some time and her emotions don't differ much to mine when I had a pregnancy scare as a teen) and read the last paragraph. The Trans issue is becoming such a huge issue to women that our focus is being diverted from the issues that still matter very much an that we still need to stay up for. The trans issue is sadly, but necessarily taking up too much discussion time and energy.

I came across an interesting quote from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, which seems to fit this debate:

"Nature never deceives us; it is always we who deceive ourselves."

itwas

It can be a bit difficult remembering the correct pronouns

An associate of mine has a trans child and i use the correct pronouns more that they do...very difficult for them after knowing someone in a particular way for so long

Men can't get pregnant. Transmen can get pregnant. Transmen who get pregnant have female genitals and will be accorded all the rights and benefits as everybody else with female genitals.

Itwas, she isn't just voicing support, she's telling us not to forget "men and nonbinary people can get pregnant too" and we need to qualify and adjust our language. Which is offensive because men can't get pregnant and therefore we need not change the way we're talking.

Perhaps you also believe this as you've referred to Noah as "she".

The trans isue here is a minor thing compared to the pro choice (which affects many more people than there are trans) . Let this person voice her opinion in any way she wishes if it is in support of rights for all women.

intelligent thoughtful discussion

Oh please Lighthouser. There have been literally thousands of posts of intelligent, thoughtful on MN on this subject with links to facts, statistics and peer reviewed studies, you might want to read some of them. That article reads like it was written by a twelve year old. We're grownups, the old "you're hateful bigots!" line means nothing.

Geist, the irony of the notion of "cisprivilege" in a group of women campaigning for abortion rights is especially galling, isn't it?

Shins, I recognise some commenting through a different group and the constant trans issues were the reason I left. I saw people jumped upon if the party line was not toed even unintentionally; aggressively accused of being trans exclusionary and to check their cis priviledge.

Noah seems perfectly reasonable to me. Some of the comments here are pretty bigoted, I'm disgusted.

Interesting read: www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-it-comes-to-transgender-rights-there-s-nothing-feminist-about-being-a-bigot-a6843811.html%3Famp?client=ms-android-fairphone

The 1967 Abortion Act permits doctors in certain circumstances to carry out abortions on pregnant women. The word woman features 11 times. And that's because men cannot get pregnant.

And therein lies his complaint. Talk about self obsessed.

I'll be utterly furious if they change the law on that basis. Just make a fucking exception and leave the law as it is.

My mind is boggled by the notion that...you're a woman having sex wth a be-penised man and must therefore worry about getting pregnant.. so how do you identify as a man? What is male about that?

It's obvious that the people commenting as well as "Noah" are very young and have little experience of life outside the student union. Hard to point that out without sounding like a patronising old cow though!

Yes you are right I focused on the fact it allows doctors to carry out terminations.

The 1967 Abortion Act permits doctors in certain circumstances to carry out abortions on pregnant women. The word woman features 11 times. And that's because men cannot get pregnant.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/87

'me me me me me ... this is not to distract from what the majority of us would view as, primarily, a women’s issue, but me me me me me'

BTW everything I have said relates to UK law. Ireland permits abortion to save the life of a pregnant women.

The UK law primarily permits the termination of a pregnancy. It does refer to pregnant woman (sorry I thought the focus was on the prrgnsncy) as well but there is no way a doctor would refuse if it were otherwise legal.There is no definition of "pregnant woman" I think most doctors could safely say a person presenting with an impregnated womb is a pregnant woman.

Just making sure here - it's not about women's rights to abortion, it's about doctors rights to perform them? Does that mean that the doctor always has some kind of decision over it?

It makes it legal for a doctor to perform an abortion. That means self-administered abortions are illegal in the U.K.Yes the doctor has a say in theory as far as I am aware outwith NI UK doctors will not refuse (other than on religious beliefs and if they do so they must refer the patient to another doctor) I've never had an abortion, I don't know anyone in the U.K who has been refused an abortion.

The law doesn't specify the sex of the person who is having the abortion, is that right?

The point of the UK law in 1967 was to decriminalise doctors if they performed an abortion.

It is still illegal to self abort or to go to a back street abortionist. A vet for example could perform an abortion but it would be illegal.

We, as pro choice trans people, do not want to be forgotten as things progress and go forward, but we also acknowledge that the eighth amendment is a sexist law that stems from the way in which society views women and the desire it has to control their bodies

yes, it bloody is sexist, because, sex is what matters here, women are what matter here. It needs to remain sexist, because human females are the ones that get pregnant. Transmen, even if legally men, are still of the female sex, and so this law needs to cover them. It's trans activists, including in this case Noah, that have brought this about by muddying what 'woman' means. If it means 'adult, human female' Noah is all good, and obviously covered by the law. If it means 'anyone who feels like saying they're a woman today' then you have a bit of an issue.

The issue is ENTIRELY self-inflicted though, through trans campaigning to make sex == gender.

Just making sure here - it's not about women's rights to abortion, it's about doctors rights to perform them? Does that mean that the doctor always has some kind of decision over it?

Ah, ok Lass, I didn't understand your first post but I think it's clearer from your second post. The law doesn't specify the sex of the person who is having the abortion, is that right?

The part that is enshrined in law is about the legality of performing them, nothing to do with the person on whom they're being performed?

Freshprincess the law in the U.K , and I'm fairly certain Ireland , is not that it is legal for women to have abortions, but that in permitted circumstances doctors may legally perform abortions.

Genuine question, I don't know the legalities. A Trans man is still legally a woman? In which case the law would still apply?