Transman on steroids wins girls wrestling competition

The problem with extra categories is that they just won't cut it: pelvis shape, lung capacity, bone density, bone length and weight, hormonal profile, blood oxygen carrying capacity... there are so many measures in which male and female bodies differ significantly that one eventually concludes that Male / Female is a fundamental and unbreachable distinction in most sports.

To eliminate that distinction eliminates sports for women.

It's the opposite of sportsmanship and fair play. Recuse yourself rather than compete against people who are not your biological peers. Your win is worthless and empty. Better to give up competitive sport entirely than have a hollow victory based on cheating.

I think professional sports have long moved past being about sportsmanship and true achievement that an individual could be proud of.

It is all about money. And if it is all about the prize money, then it doesn't matter whether you cheated. What counts is the money, not the warm and fuzzy feeling of having won fairly and because of hard work.

Maybe the solution is to stop having chromosome- or identity- based classifications for different levels of sport but instead have a scale of categories based on muscle density height and weight which classify males and females of similar physique together without caring what genitalia are in their pants?

Ah, but that would mean that everyone can participate. Many people who at the moment are not able to compete professionally are probably just too small, don't have enough muscle, etc.
If they were just grouped in another category (assuming there's more than two categories, because if it were only two, then those would all be taken over by males.)

Depends on what you aim for whether that's a problem, though. I wouldn't consider it one, but those who make money with professional sports probably do.

Maybe the solution is to stop having chromosome- or identity- based classifications for different levels of sport but instead have a scale of categories based on muscle density height and weight which classify males and females of similar physique together without caring what genitalia are in their pants?

dame

To me that is the most fair solution. But I don't see it happening any time soon because it will be seen as 'othering'.

The answer is for more categorys, transmen could compete with other transmen and transwomen could compete with other transwomen.

Surely there are huge health risks taking cross sex hormones?

The reason they have unintentionally allowed someone to dope up and compete is because the ban isn't intended to protect girls' sport competition, it's intended to deny the validity of transitioning.

A strict ban on steroids could led to awful pressure to not take medically necessary drugs in order to be able to continue competing. Which, especially at youth level, could lead to long term health problems.

I do think incorporating fairness for trans and intersex people into general sporting competition is difficult. As well as testosterone levels there are biomechanical advantages in some sports. In some ways I think it should make us question the whole basis of elite sport, which relies on all sorts of birth advantages, not simply the character and effort of the athelete as it is often positioned as.

Every time I hear of something like this I wonder how the athlete in question sleeps at night.

It's the opposite of sportsmanship and fair play. Recuse yourself rather than compete against people who are not your biological peers. Your win is worthless and empty. Better to give up competitive sport entirely than have a hollow victory based on cheating.

Why is it so wrong to care about the girls?

And why are transactivists always men?

222, I understood it!

"So either girls lose out, or girls lose out (and so do women in the adult context)."
This.

and I meant to say "if there's been no hormonal 'transition' they [the transgirl] are biological peers [with the boys]...

I give up. I hate this phone.

Not wine, *women

Katnis can you really not see it? It's girls and wine who lose, either way.

Transitioning transboy (biological female) competes against other biological females, but with the advantage of being on testosterone: girls are disadvantaged.
If the transman competes against boys, are the boys disadvantaged? Probably not, because the transboys's testosterone levels are only trying to approximate the levels the boys have anyway, and the transboy still has a female body which is unlikely to beat a male body in a test of brute physical strength.

Transitioning transgirl (biological male) competes against biological females, with with the advantage of naturally occurring testosterone levels: girls are disadvantaged. Even if T levels are reduced by 'transition', the girls with their female bodies are unlikely to beat a person with a male body in a test of brute physical strength.

If the transgirl competes against boys, are the boys disadvantaged? Probably not, because if there's been no hormonal 'transition' then they are biological (i.e.with the hormones and physiology typical of males), and if the transgirl has had hormone treatment, if anything the boys who haven't will have an advantage.

So either girls lose out, or girls lose out (and so do women in the adult context). So some people are saying "wait, let's figure out a way around this where girls aren't unfairly disadvantaged," but that position is dismissed as transphobic. Why is it so wrong to care about the girls?

Sorry, that should have read the calves and feet of other male athletes.

kat

None of it works without offending people. This is the problem. There are too many conflicts.

And sport is an absolute minefield. There are dozens of nations who would pressurise their teams to transition in order to gain an advantage.

Girls who transition to boys are never going to be able to compete effectively against natal born boys.

The great advantage will be in boys transitioning to girls. They will have a natural advantage that won't be fully accounted for by reducing testosterone levels.

None of it works.

That's not about having it both ways.

When Pistorious wanted to compete in the Olympics as well as the Paralympics, his running blades were checked for advantages over male calves and feet. If there had been such an advantage, it would not have been possible for him to compete without adjusting the blades.

Katnis

It could be that it's not possible to have any kind of level playing field if some athletes are competing outside of their biological sex.

But it can't go both ways. Do we say that people like the op's example should compete in their new gender to avoid them having an advantage, but in the same breathe do we say people as in new names' post should have to compete in their original gender to avoid them having an advantage?
Neither way works without offending people

kat

I was replying to Newname12 the poster above my reply, whose daughter is having to compete against someone born male identifying as female.

The poster you, however, are talking about is saying a girl is transitioning to be a boy and is taking testosterone during that transition and is wrestling against other girls. Thereby giving her an unfair advantage over those girls.

Datum, have you read this thread or just jumped to the usual conclusion? This is a young person, born female, and transitioning to a male. He is being made to compete against girls because his transition is not recognised by small minded right wing conservatives. Therefore no threat to feminism at all...perhaps proving though at people should be able to compete in their new gender competitions.

Sorry at computer and namechanged along the way...

Well she's competing with the knowledge of the national governing body as they are sanctioned events. At 10/11 alot of the girls are still pre pubescent so doesn't stand out.

Been competing since she was 9. As far as i know at present it's simply identifying, no treatment.

I presume she has been given permission to enter girls races, as i said, they are ngb comps.

I dunno. I feel bad because it's a child who probably has a tough life ahead. Someone will say something eventually and the shit will hit the fan. Poor kid. But then i also feel it's unfair to the girls who train so hard.

newname

Write to your MP. Write to the IOC.

Is the boy on hormones? Has he been tested? The IOC guidelines stipulate that testosterone has to be down at a certain level in order to compete against girls. It's still ridiculous, but if he is merely identifying that goes against guidelines.

My 11 year old dd is an athlete.

She is currently competing against a boy who identifies as a girl.

The mtf just has the edge at the minute, but in a few years will be way ahead.

Nothing i can do.