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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For those critical or curious about Tran Agenda

38 replies

MercyMyJewels · 18/02/2017 14:29

Please watch this. It's long, but compelling, Mary-Lou Singleton in particular is brilliant

www.heritage.org/marriage-and-family/event/biology-isnt-bigotry-why-sex-matters-the-age-gender-identity

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user1487544648 · 19/02/2017 23:13

If you are concerned about the Second Reading of the Gender Identity (Protected Characteristic) Bill 2016-2017 scheduled for 24 February 2017 and its impact upon young adults and children please refer to this website for a comprehensive overview and how best to respond to protect the rights of children and young people: www.transgendertrend.com/gender-identity-rights-of-the-child/

venusinscorpio · 19/02/2017 20:29

C8H yes, I read that article. It's a powerful piece.

222CherryCoke · 19/02/2017 20:14

Yes, Prawn I agree that we need to work with allies where we find them and I don't think anything I've said suggests otherwise.

I do think we should be aware of the broader ideological context of publications, websites, conferences etc. (particularly as they relate to issues of women's rights and gay/lesbian rights) when sharing them, as the best weapon transactivists have against women who might otherwise organise, protest, speak out about female erasure, is the accusation of bigotry/transphobia/privilege. I don't want to fuel that fire where it can be avoided.

When we come across something that eloquently makes the points we wish to make, yet also strengthens the perception that the only people who oppose the trans agenda are all the same right wing Heritage Foundation types who opposed "women's lib" and "the gay agenda" in previous decades, we might each want to weigh up the pros and cons of liking/sharing/referring others to it. And in order to weigh it up, we need to know a little about the ideology of the publication / conference host. That's all.

For me, with lots of Americans among my social media connections, who will all be familiar with the HF, I won't be sharing it because I think more people would see all the HF branding and think "yup, when she started sounding TERFy I wondered if she was going right wing in her old age, guess she is, that explains it" than would actually sit through an hour of speeches and hear how much sense they're all talking. In a UK context where the HF branding wouldn't give off such an unmistakable "Ultraconservative conversion therapy advocates" vibe, maybe I'd weigh up the pros and cons and share the video. Or maybe knowing a little about the HF would mean I'd preface the video with an attempt to preemptively address some of the likely responses.

Anyway... It's an interesting discussion but I did not mean to detract from discussion on the content of the video itself, so I'll stop going on about it.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 19/02/2017 19:19

The left has let down feminists so badly and for so long that I've become disillusioned. I very much enjoyed the video and feel that if the only way feminists can debate the issues in public is under the auspices of a right wing think tank it says a lot more about the weaknesses of the left than anything else.

222, you say the Heritage Foundation has enormous influence on policy. If this is so we can hope they're able to put the brakes on the current erasure of women. We are facing a threat to the very existence of women as a sex class. It puts other issues in the shade.

I hope working with right wing women will help us in our fight. Feminists aren't getting very far on our own, are we?

C8H10N4O2 · 19/02/2017 18:24

What I meant to post was this:

notazerosumgame.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/how-do-they-know-who-to-kill.html

Which for succinctly expresses why the conflation of sex and gender is nonsense.

C8H10N4O2 · 19/02/2017 18:05

Blush sorry wrong thread!

C8H10N4O2 · 19/02/2017 18:03

My current first recommendations for new-to-vegging are this site which has full meal plans and shopping lists:

ohmyveggies.com/

And this book as its designed for meat eaters sharing with veggies and migrating veggies:

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1848992653/?tag=mumsnetforum-21

For vegetarian books focus on books written by actual vegetarians eg Rose Elliot, ignore the token veg book done by celeb cooks. Honourable exception here is the Hugh FW book which is great (although I've heard him say he eats veggie a lot of the time which may explain it).

222CherryCoke · 19/02/2017 17:24

CharlieSierra thanks, I've just read up on Critical Sisters. Here's hoping they grow and grow.

venusinscorpio · 19/02/2017 14:43

It does, yes. That is the stark choice.

222CherryCoke · 19/02/2017 13:38

Thanks both for understanding where I'm coming from. Pencils the two reaction / response scenarios you laid out sums it up well.

PencilsInSpace · 19/02/2017 12:44

even conservative Christians are more willing to listen to radfem women than so-called progressives. What does that say about the progressives?

YES!

PencilsInSpace · 19/02/2017 12:43

I get where you're coming from, I made the same point about linking to articles in public discourse / witherspoon institute the other day. I agree it's better to be aware of the background which is why I'm pleased this coalition are being upfront about their differences. I do think it's an issue that people could inadvertently link to a source that would bring them backlash they weren't prepared for. It's:

Why are you linking to a right-wing bigot site?
Shit, am I? I had no idea, sorry Blush

versus:
Why are you linking to a right-wing bigot site?
Because you on the left have denied us all platforms Angry

FloraFox · 19/02/2017 12:39

222 I don't think the Heritage Foundation is well known in the U.K. I agree that TRAs will try to make hay of the connection with a conservative group and people who post the link should be aware of that. However I think there is a fairly easy response which is that even conservative Christians are more willing to listen to radfem women than so-called progressives. What does that say about the progressives?

222CherryCoke · 19/02/2017 12:31

Fair enough, I know there's been a conscious alliance made there, and having now watched the video (it was an excellent panel) I saw the friendly and passing reference to the unlikelihood of some of the speakers appearing at the Heritage Foundation and the fact that it might not be too comfortable for them.

As I said in the first place, it doesn't negate the points panelists made or the importance of those point being heard. But there was no mention in the OP of what the Heritage Foundation actually is, and I (maybe mistakenly) thought that the average UK based MNer might not be aware of just how well known their extreme views and their tremendous influence on policy have been in the US over the last 40 years. As well as pushing draconian cutbacks of social welfare, they actively promote a "behaviour based" approach to AIDS prevention, advocating that the US takes its "lessons from Uganda"), and were the main opposing political voice in the fight over Marriage Equality (arguing to the Supreme Court that gay and lesbians getting married would kill 900,000 babies. The position papers drafted by the Heritage Foundation have already been and will continue to be the basis of executive and legislative assaults on women's rights and women's health the Trump years: including the reintroduction of the 'global gag rule' prohibiting AIDS prevention funding from going to clinics around the World which so much as offer advice or referral on abortion in unrelated service departments; the total defunding of Planned Parenthood; the removal of protections for women in accessing health care related to contraception and abortion.

They're not just from the other side of the aisle, they are extreme in their views and dangerous in their influence. I am not trying to undermine the video - I agree with earlier posters that it's fantastic to hear these positions put forward so articulately, without the women being shouted down by transactivists or having to capitulate to the delicate sensibilities of LibFems to remain on the platform. But I will be conscious of the nature of the likely backlash should I choose to share the video or direct people to it, I'll be ready to make the argument for why it's worth watching anyway, and I thought that others might wish to be aware of this too. Maybe I misjudged the situation and it's as well known in the UK as in the US that 'Heritage Foundation' is shorthand for anti-feminist, anti-gay. The transactivists will LOVE pointing out that "TERFs" are linking to the Heritage Foundation page, they will take the view that it proves their point that we're just bigots, and many many people who might otherwise take on board the issues raised in the video, won't get past seeing the source before they make up their mind about the terrible transphobia of whomever is sharing it. I'm not saying that's a reason not to share the video, but surely it's better to be aware of it than not.

MercyMyJewels · 19/02/2017 10:50

Please do Bertrand I would be interested in your thoughts

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BertrandRussell · 19/02/2017 10:48

The Christian Right may as well wear T shirts saying "Better Trans than Gay"

Caveat. I haven't watched the video yet, I may have to come back and eat my words.

FloraFox · 19/02/2017 10:39

I was a bit Hmm at first about an alliance with Christian conservatives but that was a terrific panel. It was interesting that Miriam Ben Shalom (shero) said that working together they were finding other areas of common ground. I think there is great opportunity for consciousness raising among conservative women through initiatives like this.

MercyMyJewels · 19/02/2017 10:09

Pencil

Thanks for posting that, it's very powerful

222

I am aware of what the Heritage Foundation is. What you need to ask is why left wing women agreed to be on their platform. The answer is: because no left wing body will allow discussion of this issue. Please watch the video and read Pencil's link.

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CharlieSierra · 19/02/2017 10:03

Critical Sisters has been formed to campaign from a left wing standpoint for exactly the reasons you mention 222. It's early days, but you can follow them on Twitter I think.

PencilsInSpace · 19/02/2017 09:58

222, feminists and conservatives are making a conscious choice to campaign together on this issue while acknowledging they disagree fundamentally in many other areas:

On the subject of whether a woman is an adult human female, feminists have been made thoroughly unwelcome on the left. So if liberals think it’s very strange for feminists to work with conservatives, they should probably stop telling us to “drink bleach” or looking the other way as online mobs demand that we be fired. (from here)

I think it's a powerful stance to take - it's saying this issue is so important it's worth putting aside differences for, and it pre-empts those accusations of right-wing bigotry.

Datun · 19/02/2017 09:30

Lass

If you are dismissed or treated less well because you are breastfeeding you may have a claim for sex discrimination.

I'm trying to get my head around this. From a legal viewpoint, if someone wanted to claim they are being discriminatedagainst on account of their sex, could that be opposed by saying men (legal, not biological) breastfeed too, therefore you can't use your sex as a reason?

Lass as a lawyer, can you think of any instances where this is going to cause trouble?

Datun · 19/02/2017 09:27

222

They actually make a joke about their political positions being on the opposite side. But coming together over this one issue.

CharlieSierra · 19/02/2017 08:55

Lass your own link very clearly states that to treat someone less well due to breastfeeding would give rise to a complaint of sex discrimination. The point that was made was about sex as a protected characteristic, and that conflating sex and gender will impact on this.

222CherryCoke · 19/02/2017 03:06

I haven't watched yet but intend to. Just a comment for what it's worth, the Heritage Foundation is a vile ultra conservative anti-LGB (and now T) think tank, which has influenced American policy to the detriment of gay and lesbian people since Reagan.

I'm not saying that takes away from the points made in the video or the importance of people hearing it. But if anyone is going to share it or point people in its direction, I just would want them to be aware of the fact that association /agreement with the Heritage Foundation will inevitably fuel accusations of right wing bigotry.

I really wish the progressives would wake the fuck up about this issue.

nooka · 19/02/2017 02:30

I guess one thing to remember is that workers have little protection in the US, so being in a protected group becomes massively more important. I live in Canada which is a bit of a half way house and here it seems that if you are mistreated at work and you can't use your contract to argue against it you really have to look at Human Rights legislation for protection. You can't just argue that you've been treated really badly as you might be able to with an Employment Tribunal.