Just when you thought Everyday Transactivism could no longer surprise * title edited by MNHQ*

Men have always had more traction than women and men who say otherwise are ridiculous. Even other men think that (the reasonable ones).

Middleground raises a really interesting point: women who have been through breast cancer and have had to have mastectomies, do not have a veto on transwomen discussing "top surgery" at women's events, on the grounds that it may be triggering to them. But actually, it must be really upsetting to hear men go on about their "boobs" and to hear healthy young women discussing yay their determination to have mastectomies. And yet those women are not writing whiney, entitled, self-pitying posts in the blogosphere demanding that transpeople shut up about their bodies in case it triggers women with breast cancer.

Just a thought.

Me: It's easy to not be bothered by something that doesn't affect you isn't it

Meph in the next post:
I think all I can do is wish you guys luck, as this is an area of gender politics where 'cis' men have even less traction than usual

Nice positioning. Lucky that I don't think that when my mates do Moovember (or whatever it is) or any of the other things that don't affect me. Men have as much traction as they always do, and as usual, they can't be bothered unless it directly affects them.

One of the things that really hurts in this whole debate is the terminology used, we see glamourised terms such as "top surgery" for females, lets be honest here and call it for what it is - it is a double mastectomy - why any woman would choose to have an elective double mastectomy is totally beyond my comprehension. Having been a cancer friend to 3 of my closest female friends struggling through breast cancer, witnessing their unimaginable pain and discomfort coupled with the brutality of chemo and radiotherapy, hair loss, post op complications I get really upset when people can get elective surgery yet women with life threatening cancers are unable to get life saving drugs. There is something dreadfully wrong when "feelings" override essential medical interventions. Please sign the petition and tell @NICEcomms and @_RocheUK to #KeepKadcyla available for women with secondary breast cancer bit.ly/2hJ3KaA

Nicely put, Twunk.

I remember starting to read these threads and just not appreciating the "war" going on out there against gender-critical feminists, and women as a whole. The vitriol, threats, silencing and hate that happens is truly astonishing. I thought the women on here were exaggerating or at least looking for conflict - no, they are not- WE are not. I'm now one of those fighting the fight.

Trans rights activists (and I'm talking about activists not ordinary people getting on with their lives) genuinely hate feminists who don't agree with them. They will do anything to silence us online, and in person (see: no-platforming).

Feminists have better things to do than fight the trans activist movement, but it's the most pressing issue right now. Right now sex segregation is being taken away from us. It's gone from the Girl Guides, it's gone from schools, it's going from prisons, it's going from loos, changing rooms, hospital wards. It's going from sports. And this isn't people who have done years of therapy and hormones and surgery - these are men who "feel like" women. A man could literally wake up in the morning and decide he's a woman, or indeed moments before entering the female toilets or changing room.

Think that's an exaggeration? Think again.

No, I wasn't referring to you, seachangeshell. Obviously real transphobia does exist but I'm pretty sure what middle said was a joke. Yes, fairly black humour. We all get a bit frustrated with all this shit.

I was referring to people who say it's transphobic to name the problem of autogynephilia, for instance. And technically you could say it's a tricky one as of course NATALT. But that doesn't stop it being a real problem for women.

This link shows there are some gender critical trans women out there. I wish they were allowed to have their voices heard, but they are often silenced.
www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/12/gender_critical_trans_women_the_apostates_of_the_trans_rights_movement.html

venus. Are you referring to me as 'wibbling on' ?
I am a feminist. I too am horrified by the awful things that trans activists say and I know they would accuse me of being transphobic because I am a gender critical feminist.
But when middle said that perhaps we should 'stick all trans people on an island and let nature take its course ' I find that goes too far.
One thing I found most inspiring about the original 'Spartacus ' threads was the lack of hate for trans people. They aren't all women haters.

Pencils, thanks for those links. I doubt I'll read all of the guff but I'll certainly take a proper look at the briefing. I've had a glance at it, and it reflects a lot of my own concerns.

Read Middle's linked article, Meph. Go on. That is pure and simple misogyny. And yes, you could do more.

I enjoy pointing out to people who wibble on about feminists being transphobic how vocal transactivists consider plenty of their own views as transphobic. You literally aren't allowed critical thinking or common sense.

It must be terrible to live in a social circle where even being suspected of being a TERF will get you ostracized. It's a big deal for the young in some settings.

That's just another reason why Magdalen Bern is so amazing. The sheer courage of the lone stand which got her banned from the LGBT societies of every university in the country is breathtaking.

I've made a necessarily small donation to Magdalen's Patreon. I see her as a worthy cause. She's still at university and I can't imagine talking at feminist conferences is much of a living. Just thought I'd mention it.

Just checked my Twitter feed and now totally lost it having read this: anti-female-receipts.tumblr.com/post/157229676578/fuck-you-you-terf-bitch-how-can-a-15-year-old-be

Question: Why are platforms such as tumblr not protecting young people from this type of abuse?

I think all I can do is wish you guys luck, as this is an area of gender politics where 'cis' men have even less traction than usual.

What a cop-out!

Men could help massively by speaking up about this and are far less likely to be targeted for abuse than women who dare to raise objections. Do you not have any women or girls in your life you care about at all?

You could write to your MP and let them know what the problems are with the proposed changes. The next reading of Miller's Bill is 24 Feb so it's a good time to raise objections.

Here's what happened during the last debate.

Here's the report which inspired the bill.

Here's a good briefing on what's wrong with it.

Jesus, that Guerilla Feminism FB page is brutal to TERFS! I'm positive I that mist of the wimen there are only one small doubt or disagreement fro being a TERF themselves. I find it hard to believe that any woman out there actually agrees with every aspect of trans thinking.

I totally agree Greypaw. This censorship is both oppressive and intellectually lazy.

I've found myself lurking an awful lot on these threads, trying to understand both sides of the debate for personal understanding, and also because I've got a whopping great assignment on gender to complete.

I'm full of questions, but it seems in most places where I could get answers, questions aren't welcomed or intelligent debate is stifled. I've never known any other issue where people are expected to just shut up and accept in this way; it's as if a lack of understanding (and seeking to address that in more than just a surface way) leads to accusations of bigotry. As someone who studied Women's Studies at university in the 90s, this shutting-down feels absurd to me; there were always plenty of dissenting voices relating to alternative sexualities and relationship structures at that time, but lively debate was always welcomed. It sharpened your thoughts and forced you to challenge your own woolly thinking. It's been said a million times before on here, I know, but this lack of critical thought is just resulting in massive amounts of bullshit being spouted and going unchallenged, and it's hard to find the pertinent, thoughtful points among it all.

All this is a shame, because some interesting questions are being raised. Reading blogs by many trans women, for example, the reasons they give for "just knowing" they're women, are (from what I've read) things like the fact that they always preferred playing with girls, liked dolls, want to wear make up and dresses, etc etc etc. Which sounds like bollocks because it's all very focussed on external appearance and these things obviously don't make someone a woman at all. This is why Danielle Muscato is so interesting, I think; if being a woman really isn't about external appearances but about what you feel inside, she really brings this concept into sharp focus for a lot of people. She seems to result in a lot of people screeching to a peak trans halt, because it seems so ludicrous that she's expecting to be accepted as a woman. And yet, why not? Is she less of a woman than someone who shaves their beard, has surgery and puts on eyeliner? And if it's not about external appearances and really is about an internal feeling, why does any trans person bother changing their appearance at all?

Anyway. Those are my unrefined musings. I'm going to carry on reading quietly.

The only thing that I and every single other woman on the planet have in common is our sex. That physical reality is what makes us women. The oppression faced by women is because of our sex, and gender roles reinforce the subjugation of women.

The degree of subjugation varies over time and space but even in the wealthy West women are still fighting for liberation. Female socialization keeps us back, trains us to perform femininity.

Feminism is and always has been about women and our bodily autonomy. Women's issues are rooted in our physicality. A little girl can't identify her way out of forced marriage or FGM. The two women a week murdered by a partner or an ex-partner in the UK can't escape their fate by declaring themselves to be trans.

Feminists see gender as one of the main tools of female oppression. We reject it. This is why feminists,are described as "gender critical". The trans agenda is quite the opposite. They raise gender up, to make it more important. They talk as if long hair and heels makes you a woman. A lot of the trans activists are fetishists, and the porn they consume reveals that they see being a woman as intrinsically humiliating and demeaning.

Feminism isn't about men. They can support feminism but it's never going to be about them. And this isn't affected by transition. TW have no place in feminism, apart from as support should they wish it. Happily there are a few, but most TW seem actively to despise women, even to hate us.

I know loads of lovely men, and none of them display the aggression and toxic masculinity that comes pouring out from the typical trans activist. They are so unlike women it's ludicrous.

I feel for the quiet gay transsexuals who try hard to fit in with women but I have no time for the majority who campaign under the trans umbrella. Most of those who now call themselves trans are just cross dressers. They are actively anti-feminist and are creating no end of problems for the lesbians so many of them pursue.

Sorry, Mephistopheles, it's a bit of a screed.

Many TW believe they are women and always were - well, i guess female. They were never a boy or a man. The body isn't important, just how you feel and identify and why surgery, hormones, presenting as a stereotypical female - isn't necessary. Biology- as in looking male or having a penis or xy chromosomes - doesn't matter.

Them claiming their penis is female and they are lesbians and should be accepted as such - penis, beard or whatever - then makes sime sort if sense (if that's the ideology you choose to believe.

Ah, I suppose this is the logical end point of post-modernism (which is finally being given the correct label, post-truth). Every perspective is valid, every fact is an opinion - even chromosomes.

Well, that sucks. Personally I am extremely hostile to the dilution of fact and the manipulation of language, but I think all I can do is wish you guys luck, as this is an area of gender politics where 'cis' men have even less traction than usual.

It's easy to not be bothered by something that doesn't affect you isn't it.

Perhaps if the changing room at whatever sports club Trump uses was suddenly full of transmen wandering around he'd be miffed. Or if it became city ordinance that dogs had to use public toilets and that the women decided that it should be the men's toilet they used.

Liberal feminism as people understand it today revolves around centring men.